Talk:Travelogues of Palestine

Date

I have a problem with how this books are listed, should they not be listed according to when the travel was done? Eg Felix Fabri was in Palestine in the 1480s.

Also, perhaps link

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Palestine/Books?

Also, I think we should aim to get all the "classic" travelogues mentioned by Edward Robinson in his List of works, Huldra (talk) 21:51, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Wheat shipments

The information about wheat shipments to France does not belong here as it's not clear what is its relationship to the travelogues. It might belong to the History of Palestine article but I'm hesitant to move it there because the passage says it's based on Paul Masson's work but in fact cites Beheiry's article. I'm adding the passage to the talk page, would be great if someone could check it. --Alaexis_¿question? 20:27, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

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According to Paul Masson, a French economic historian, "wheat shipments from the Palestinian port of Acre had helped to save southern France from famine on numerous occasions in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries."

References

name

Hi @Srnec: please could we discuss your recent page move? This article has a wider scope; I have amended the introduction with a couple of good sources to clarify. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:21, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

I have no objection to moving the article back if the scope fits the title. The article I moved began Travelogues of Palestine are the more than 3,000 books and other materials detailing accounts of the journeys of primarily European and North American travelers to Ottoman Palestine. The only reference to pre-Ottoman travelogues was a list of 11. There was no text about them. Srnec (talk) 15:49, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

OK thank you. I agree the lead was misleading (and poorly written). I think this is rectified now. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:04, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

The lead is rectified, yes, but the article still has a long way to go. There is a lot of secondary literature on the medieval travelogues. Srnec (talk) 18:34, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

order of listing

To editor Huldra: To editor Onceinawhile: To editor Srnec: As Huldra wrote two years ago, travelogues should be listed under the centuries in which the travels were done. I don't think it is useful to list them under the date of a particular publication, since the usefulness of the observations derives more from when they were made than from when they were published. Many of them were published multiple times anyway, in multiple centuries. A case in point is the travels of Evliya Celebi, who visited Palestine in 1648–1650. It is precisely the fact that this time period is little covered by accessible travelogues that makes it useful, even though it was not published until 1935–1942 (not 1834 as listed now). It should be listed under 17th century. Zero^talk 00:54, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree too. I have moved that one and a couple of others. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:09, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

I am also somewhat in doubt about the whole section called "Debate over mid-nineteenth century depictions": should that be a separate article? (Thanks to whoever put it at the end, anyway!) Also: the "classical travelogues", mentioned by Robinson, should really all be mentioned, me thinks, Huldra (talk) 22:42, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Medieval

I think that for medieval (i.e. pre-printing) works, we should not list or link specific editions here. I removed a couple when I added others to the list, because the format with a modern publishing date and an editor's name seems confusing to me. Srnec (talk) 02:27, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Table

Why a table? What is this obsession with tables at WP? In my opinion there is no benefit to the table. Srnec (talk) 13:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi Srnec, I don’t feel strongly – that’s why I only converted part of the list. My thinking is as follows on the benefits of a table:

• Consistency: currently we don’t have much consistency – many are missing titles (and sometimes even authors), editions, links, language (I added a few). A table makes this much easier to see and then fix. The consistency also makes it much quicker to identify which important travelogues we are missing, because we have just one row per item (vs multiple bullets/subbullets previously).
• Ability to add manuscript images in future (e.g. as in Cartography of Palestine)
• Sortability by language (and other categories if we like)
• Neat way to add different editions (per your Oct 2019 comment above)

I have been working through Robinson’s list to see how we can build this list out further.

Are there ways we could achieve most of the above in a format you would prefer?

Onceinawhile (talk) 16:33, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

George Robinson (1837): Travels in Palestine and Syria

Does anyone know anything more about this author?

I don't think he is among the people mentioned on the George Robinson-page? Huldra (talk) 22:04, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi Huldra, I have looked in a few books from the same period but can find nothing which describes his background. A few modern sources give the period in which he flourished, which suggest they don’t even know his year of birth. One source says he came from England. The only review I have found so far is: The Eclectic Review. 1838. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:17, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, User:Onceinawhile: archive.org doesn't seem to know who he is, either; they lump all the "George Robinson" together, Huldra (talk) 23:33, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

To editor Huldra:To editor Onceinawhile: The Library of Congress catalogue only says "active 1837–1844". The British Library knows even less. There was another George Robinson who would be confused with this one except that the dates are too far apart. Professor George L. Robinson of McCormick Theological Seminary, Chicago, visited Beersheba in 1900 and published at least two articles on it. Zero^talk 01:27, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

To editor Zero0000:To editor Onceinawhile:, yes there is a page for creator:"Robinson, George, 1736-1801" on archive. (There is also a page for "creator:"Robinson, George, 1736-1801"", but that is obviously for George Robinson (bookseller). "Our" George Robinson gives the impression (in the forword) of travelling "for leisure" (but also writing), maybe a relation of the bookseller? (who published several travelogues from the Med., and "Asia Minor". Huldra (talk) 21:02, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The preface of this GR is signed with a residential address in Paris. I don't think that means he was French, but the whole story suggests he was loaded. Zero^talk 01:54, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

According to this George the bookseller (died 1801) had a son, George who died 1811, and he also had a son, called George. So it is possible that our George is the grandson of the bookseller in the article that Huldra linked to. But of course it is a reasonably common name... Onceinawhile (talk) 08:34, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

The George Robinson (bookseller)-article implies that he was a rather wealthy bookseller, perhaps that is where the money came from? (Btw: that era was a golden era for book-sellers (and buyers!). With the French Revolution a zillion great libraries were broken up..and sold for a song, until people learned what was valuable.)

I am always interested in who wrote these travelogues, and how much they can be trusted. (Eg, some Christian missionaries (who depended on donations for the work) where notorious in exaggerating their success. No success (ie no conversions) -> no donations!)

Anyway, I guess we will not come further here. Huldra (talk) 21:33, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi Huldra, I completely agree with your sentiment on knowing the background, and their incentives. That is a large part of the reason behind my interest in the background to each of the Canaanite and Aramaic inscriptions. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:42, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Pringle, crusader period

Out of the book's TOC, I added the named authors and skipped the anonyms. I also excluded Mathew Paris, who as I understand didn't write first hand impressions, or maybe not with realistic intentions at all. trespassers william (talk) 15:59, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Marino Sanuto the Elder

Shouldn't he be included? He is often referred to, eg by Robinson, cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:37, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Proposal for page reform

In my opinion, this very useful page is severely damaged by the "Debate" section. It starts off with four cherry-picked sentences taken from four different chapters of Twain's book! (Also see this diff of mine including the edit summary.) This rubbish was added first in 2006 to article "Palestine" by user Amoruso, who was later indeffed for (among other serious offences) repeatedly lying about sources. Then it was moved from place to place, finally ending up here with a valiant but ultimately unsuccessful attempt to make it wiki-worthy. Scholarly discussions of early travelogues exist in plenty and could be put to good use in a page on that topic, but what we have here is mostly just an echo of a past "land without a people, no it wasn't, yes it was" edit war. Zero^talk 12:33, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. It is a poor section and should be removed for now. As you say, there is a lot of scope for a quality discussion section on this topic if anyone is willing to do the work.

On the list side of things, I have a longer term ambition to list out all the relevant manuscript and later publications of the pre-modern travelogues, given that almost all of them have different original versions which sometimes say different things. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:37, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Now you see it, now you don't ;). Zero^talk 13:51, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Etheria

she was the original travelogue in 4th century ad. See wikipedia entry. Betsyhunter2 (talk) 04:07, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

She's there under the spelling Egeria. Srnec (talk) 17:16, 2 December 2023 (UTC)