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Avalon

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Seriously weird, see[1]. Doug Weller talk 15:51, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Moving forward

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might start by going back to the state it was with its first edit. There are plenty of sources that can be used, eg ADL 2104, SPLC 2014, SPLC mentions some 2015 activities this year's Indiana protest where they wore Nazi memorabilia}, [https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2016/active-hate-groups-united-states-2015 SPLC lists them as a hate group. Several more mentioning Heimbach's activities and linking it with him. Doug Weller talk 15:59, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Group's statement

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Agreed with most of the recent edits, but I do think we should still include the group's own statement of what they stand for. I have qualified it to say "The group says ...". It comes straight from their web site. Kendall-K1 (talk) 06:42, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"small"? how many members?

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The first sentence says it is a "small white supremacist group". How many members are there? I don't see that mentioned anywhere. What is "small"? 208.44.84.138 (talk) 20:27, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

POV issues

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This article relies entirely on the radical Leftist Southern Poverty Law Center and Anti-Defamation League, and worse, repeats the sources' biases in Wikipedia's own voice. This is unacceptable. More RS need to be included and the reiteration of the sources' biases removed from the article text. Jujutsuan (Please notify with {{re}} talk | contribs) 05:02, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The ADL and the SPLC are not "radical leftist" sources. Both are well-respected sources known for their expertise in monitoring extremist groups, and both often provide invaluable information about them not available elsewhere. ADL and SPLC data is cited and used by researchers, policymakers, and journalists.
A search for both groups of the archives of WP:RSN will reflect broad consensus on the subject. If you wish to take the matter to RSN with respect to this article in particular, feel free. If you want to add further additional sources, feel free to do that as well. But in light of the above, I'm removing the POV tag from the article. Neutralitytalk 06:15, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
But they're still heavily biased. Putting the POV tag back until the article stops reporting their biases in Wikipedia's voice. Jujutsuan (Please notify with {{re}} talk | contribs) 06:19, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You've identified no statement in the article that "reports their biases" (whatever that means). If you question the reliability or validity of the source, you ought to take it up with WP:RSN. Neutralitytalk 06:22, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"The Traditionalist Youth Network (TYN) is a white supremacist group based in the United States. Established in 2013, the group promotes a racist interpretation of Christianity."
"Heimbach has been a white supremacist activist since fall 2011, when he formed a group at Towson University in Maryland and invited the white supremacist Jared Taylor to speak at Towson's campus. The following year, Heimbach founded a "White Student Union" on campus, adopting racist and antisemitic views."
"In spring 2013, upon graduation, Heimbach established TYN in partnership with Parrot, who founded a white supremacist group, Hoosier Nation, in Indiana around 2009."
"Parrot is also a white supremacist group eventually became a chapter of American Third Position (later known as the American Freedom Party)."
"The group advocates for white separatism..."
"and a small group of candidates from the far right have announced plans to run"
Is that enough? These should all be qualified: "has been called", "____ has said of TYN, '___'", etc. Jujutsuan (Please notify with {{re}} talk | contribs) 06:28, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
These are all either (1) direct statements of fact or (2) well-sourced descriptors not reasonably subject to dispute. There is no doubt whatsoever, for example, that the group advocates for white separatism/supremacy. This characterization is amply supported by the SPLC and ADL, and also by a number of other sources: (e.g., Indianapolis Star: "a white separatist group called Traditional Youth Network" (link); The Courier-Journal: "the white supremacist Traditional Youth Network" (link). Neutralitytalk 06:42, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm tagging @Doug Weller: who posted above on a similar topic and may want to weigh in. Neutralitytalk 06:44, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree with @Jujutsuan, here. The term "white supremacist" is clearly pushing a POV. Of itself, it conveys very little information. Check the White supremacy article -- it gives a definition that includes "therefore white people should politically, economically and socially rule non-white people." Where are the RSs that support that TYN espouses this belief? Even the SPLC itself has stopped using the term, if I understand correctly. Klortho (talk) 23:54, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The involvement of white supremacists Matthew Heimbach, Matt Parrott, and Jared Taylor would suggest that TYN is going down that road, but until we get reliable sources, you're right that we should stick with "white nationalist". It just feels like white-washing, but I guess we have to live with it. Ground Zero | t 11:14, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The SPLC used the term just over 2 weeks ago:"Virginia white supremacist sentenced for role in murder-robbery conspiracy to finance a race war.[2] But this 2 year old article on the TYN does call it White Nationalist.[3] The ADL on the other hand says " is a small group that promotes white supremacy and a racist interpretation of Christianity. The group is against modernism, individualism, globalism and Marxism. It models itself after the European Identitaire movement, which focuses on preserving white European culture and identity in Western countries." Suitably attributed we can use that, the ADL is a reliable source for its opinions.

3 days ago its political wing, the Traditionalist Workers Party (see this SPLC article on it[4]), was involved in a melee which left about 10 people injured and has been described as a white supremacist rally.[5][6][7] - sources do vary about their description, the LA Times calling it "white nationalist".[8] We can say that. Doug Weller talk 12:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There is no shortage of sources that describe him as either a white nationalist or white supremacist, and he is often mentioned in stories about white supremacists as well. If editor's think it's a contentious claim, then just use attribution to the source where necessary.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 23:27, 6 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just because you can find reputable sources which purport that I'm a "white supremacist" doesn't justify using the epithet TEN TIMES and ignoring the fact that we object to the label and explicitly reject white supremacism in our organizational documents. I know I'm biased, being Matt Parrott and all, but how is this article not clearly and blatantly an attempt to piece together the worst possible hit piece achievable with the primary sources available? Does this look objective to others? It creates the impression that we openly endorse white supremacy. At the very least, we're not "open" about it! I'm an open source coder and have been a big supporter of wikipedia since its beginning, so it's doubly distressing for me to watch its mission going off the rails like this in my own article. Wikitopian (talk) 14:31, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia must recognize the fact that the SPLC and ADL are biased against any sort of activism on behalf of white people, anywhere. Organizations that do the exact same things, yet are based around a brown, black, yellow, or red identity, are never denigrated in such an overwhelming manner. I understand that it is Wikipedia's job to reflect the biases of so-called reputable sources, but in the interest of being as totally neutral as possible, negative and aggressive references to this organization should be prefaced with "has been called" and "has been described as" etc, as another user suggested. When a user named "Neutrality" is pushing his POV and the POV of extremely biased organizations, we can infer that Orwell was absolutely right... 73.20.33.105 (talk) 16:21, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Separate page for TWP?

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Should a separate page be made for the TWP or should the name be changed to the TWP for this and TYN made a subheader? Brendanww2 (talk) 03:30, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nationalist Front

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Reading this I noticed that it says "the groups that plan to take part in the events in Eastern Kentucky include the National Socialist Movement; the Traditionalist Worker Party; and the League of the South, which are allied under the umbrella of the Nationalist Front." See the National Front's website.[9]The LOS itself says it's part of this[10] as does the National Socialist Movement (United States) "On Saturday August 12th. the National Socialist Movement will join Our Allies the Traditionalist Workers Party, League of the South and other Nationalist Front Members in Charlottesville, VA"[11]. The ADL says it was formed at a meeting to celebrate Hitler's birthday.[12] It's lead (oops, "Commanded" by Jeff Schoep, leader of the National Socialist Movement and Matthew Heinbach. Doug Weller talk 11:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This Article is Absolute Garbage

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WP:NOTFORUM, WP:COI kvetching
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

TradYouth doesn't even exist anymore, and hasn't for years. In fact, and the TradYouth website has redirected to TradWorker for a while now. I won't even get into the nonsense about our falsely being accused of being "White Supremacists," because I know you idiots get off on adding even more "citations" from obviously hostile news outlets every time I politely insist that the article should merely add a brief note clarifying that we claim to not be White Supremacist. It's used so frequently that it's obvious that it's an amateurish attack piece, the amateurishness being compounded by the incoherent, disjointed, and stale nature of the jumbled word salad between the TEN claims that we're White Supremacist.

And what is going on with the "See Also"? We have nothing to do with Christian Identity. We have nothing to do with "Neo-Luddism." You're seriously linking to "hardline?"

As ironic as this may be, I'm begging you guys to contact the SPLC for a more balanced and fair article about who we are, what we stand for, and what we're doing. This is ridiculous, and not in the "Hah! The WHITE SUPREMACIST is angry that we exposed him!" kind of way, but in the way where journalists and students trying to learn about our organization are confronted with a wall of flung spaghetti which doesn't even meet Encyclopedia Dramatica's editorial standards.

Matt Parrott, Co-Founder

Wikitopian (talk) 04:08, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Traditionalist Workers at Charlottesville & planning to come to Shelbyville later this month

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This source[13] quotes the leader of the TWP, who just posted above.

"The groups coming to Shelbyville for what they’re calling a “White Lives Matter” rally include The League of the South, the Traditionalist Workers Party, Vanguard America and the National Socialist Movement.

These alt-right fringe groups claimed they were innocent victims of attacks by counter protesters in Charlottesville, that they were merely trying to protect themselves and to assert their constitutional right to free speech.

This is how Matt Parrott of Traditionalist Youth Network, a white supremacist group, described their claim of self defense: “With a full-throated rebel yell, the League broke through the wall of degenerates and TradWorker managed to enter the Lee Park venue itself while they were largely still reeling. Michael Tubbs, an especially imposing League organizer towered over and pushed through the antifa like a Tyrannosaurus among raptors as league fighters with shields put their training to work.”

Another view of the incident came from a news reporter, Blake Montgomery: “Most white supremacist and Nazi groups arrived armed like a paramilitary force — carrying shields, protective gear, rods and, yes, lots of guns, utilizing Virginia’s loose firearm laws. They used militarized defensive maneuvers, shouting commands at one another to ‘move forward’ or ‘retreat,’ and would form a line of shields or a phalanx — it’s like they watched ‘300’ a few times — to gain ground or shepherd someone through projectiles. It seemed that they had practiced for this." Doug Weller talk 11:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 October 2017

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 04:19, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Traditionalist Youth Network → Traditionalist Worker Party – The group came to national attention in the U.S. following the Unite the Right rally, under the name of "Traditionalist Worker Party" (TWP). SPLC lists it as TWP in this profile, and the org's web site has the TWP name. It's also the name that's it's being sued under (note that it's "Worker" not "Workers" in the official name). K.e.coffman (talk) 00:31, 18 October 2017 (UTC)*[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Neo-Nazi

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I am wondering if it would be appropriate to add "neo-Nazi" descriptor to the article:

  • "Matthew Heimbach, the leader of the neo-Nazi Traditionalist Worker Party, said ..." The Guardian
  • "... the group is intimately allied with neo-Nazi and other hardline racist organization..." SPLC

The Nationalist Front (United States), that the group is part of, is also described as neo-Nazi: "The ANA [later Nationalist Front] was first unveiled by NSM leader Jeff Schoep in April 2016, and its list of member organizations includes neo-Nazi, Klan, and racist skinhead groups." (Same SPLC source as above.) K.e.coffman (talk) 19:37, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's worth pointing out that TWP's own official party platform [14] specifically includes advocating for National Socialism. They seem to be one of the few white nationalist groups that isn't denying it, so I don't think it would be terribly controversial to mention. I'm just not sure what the best language would be. The WordsmithTalk to me 23:52, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In this photo, TWP's banner reads "100% Socialist" and "100% Nationalist" (link). Read: National Socialist, so they are quite explicit about it.
Perhaps the opening sentence could read: "[TWP] is a neo-Nazi, white nationalist group..." K.e.coffman (talk) 00:32, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Since there have been no objections, I'll implement the change. K.e.coffman (talk) 07:44, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I changed it to just neo-Nazism. It seems to describe their beliefs all in one, which includes white nationalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JustAPoliticalNerd (talk • contribs) 02:11, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Violence in Colorado

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On Friday, February 2nd members of the TWP attacked protesters outside of a speech by Turning Point USA's Charlie Kirk at Colorado State University. The gang of about 12 men dressed in skinhead style clothing and armed with shields, flashlights and clubs arrived just after the police had declared the event an unlawful assembly. According to The Colorado General Defense Committee of the IWW, violence only began when police "pushed" the crowd "confrontation with the neo-nazis." The violence comes a few weeks after TWP put up anti immigrant flyers around campus.

sources:

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.17.18.135 (talk) 02:17, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Heimbach is Under Arrest; Felony Charges

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Matthew Heimbach is currently under arrest with felony charges for multiple violent incidents, while also being on parole with anger management. He beat and strangled his wife, in front of his small child. He also strangled his stepfather, Parrott, also a leader in TWP, until unconsciousness, twice in succession. The incident apparently started when Parrott, and Heimbach's wife, (Parrott's daughter), found out that Heimbach was having a sexual affair with Parrott's wife. This is very notable, and should be included as soon as possible. Almost all White Nationalist Organizations, including Identity Evropa, The Right Stuff, Daily Stormer, and Richard Spencer, have cut ties with Heimbach and TWP. Sources, are the following,

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:982:4200:a6c:9459:d3f9:e9ff:76d (talk) 19:39, 13 March 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]

I guess it's probably worth mentioning that Parrott has posted on this talk page a few times in the past. Even if that weren't the case, basic decency and Wikipedia's policies on living people suggest treating this cautiously. How significant this is will become clear with time as more sources are published. If nothing else, Parrott's resignation seems relevant to this organization, so that's the element I've tried to emphasize in my extremely brief summary of this incident.
I may have missed it, but I don't see where these sources mention other "white nationalist" organizations cutting ties over this. If reliable sources don't cover it, neither should we, but again, time will tell. Grayfell (talk) 02:35, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have information from lurking personal social media handles, and forum posts from far-right sites that TWP is being disbanded. As in, not active. Almost the entire hierarchy has resigned today, and TWP records are being torched, and computers are being bleachbit and physically destroyed. Sometime to keep in mind, for when reliable sources outside of this organization report on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:982:4200:A6C:9459:D3F9:E9FF:76D (talk) 07:55, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The arrest is all over the news now. This site[15] says " it seems as if the TWP is already in the process of disbanding, at least in it’s current form. Parrott has released a statement to the SPLC proclaiming that he is “done” and that “[SPLC] has won. Matt Parrott is out of the game.” He has since announced on Gab that he is shutting down all TWP related servers, including the website and any membership rosters. Others have chimed in declearing “The TWP is dead” while others have claimed they are simply in the process of “rebranding”. As of now, their website is still down." Meanwhile I notice that the SPLC article says "Over the weekend, Richard B. Spencer, head of the National Policy Institute, announced he would forgo any more campus speeches for now after a sparsely attended speech on March 5 at Michigan State University." Doug Weller talk 08:26, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The TWP has dissolved

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Yesterday Heimbach was arrested for assault, and the Traditionalist Worker Party has announced its dissolution on social media. It’s website is now a 404 error. Wobbly99 (talk) 15:19, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Daily Beast released an article describing TWP as disbanded. TWP was ultimately a cult-like organization, and could not survive without Heimbach. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:982:4200:A6C:9459:D3F9:E9FF:76D (talk) 22:12, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The site being down and the membership data being deleted seems pretty noteworthy, so I've added this to the article. Does Parrott, as TWP's spokesman, have the ability to dissolve the organization? Perhaps it's a technicality, but either sources will cover it, or they won't. Grayfell (talk) 23:32, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.thedailybeast.com/matthew-heimbachs-traditional-workers-party-implodes-over-love-triangle-turned-trailer-brawl

TWP is officially disbanded and their website shut down

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TWP is officially disbanded and their website shut down

https://www.thedailybeast.com/matthew-heimbachs-traditional-workers-party-implodes-over-love-triangle-turned-trailer-brawl?ref=scroll — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:7D4D:1D00:5C27:B702:9F33:38A4 (talk) 19:15, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we consider The Daily Beast to be a reliable source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:37, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, the RSN has said DB is a reliable source outside of opinion pieces. Parrott spoke to DB, and the website did go down, the veracity of those claims can't be challenged. Etzedek24 (Would it kill ya to leave an edit summary?) 02:13, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's just too soon. For now, it's Parrott who's been saying it, apparently. Let's give it a week or two before declaring the group disbanded. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:19, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Sorry, since the TDB is a fairly leftist outlet, I don't think it's reasonable to trust it in regard to news about far-right organizations. If the TWP has actually folded -- which is certainly not impossible, and perhaps even probable --it will be reported by the mainstream media, and that's the kind of source we need. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:22, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
K.e. coffman's point is a good one. Considering the personal issues between Parrot and Heimbach, it's too soon to know if what Parrot is saying is authoritative or simply him getting back at his wife's lover. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:22, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I do agree it is too soon to be changed. RSN disagrees with you, however. They avoid citing it in BLP articles but have said that regular reporting (which they do like any other publication) passes RS. Take it to RSN if you're that concerned with its neutrality--there's nothing in the cited article that violates NPOV. Etzedek24 (Would it kill ya to leave an edit summary?)
Even The New Republic, which would have every reason to report TWP's demise has their article headlined "Is it the end of the white nationalist Traditionalist Workers Party?"- a question, not a statement of fact. Just as with the reported death of a person, we wait until the mainstream media reports it, just to be sure. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:28, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Let's leave it be for a while. There's no rush. Wikipedia is not a news reporting organisation, and it does not really matter whether the article catches up to the news, especially for a relatively minor group like this. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:30, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It probably is best to wait. The necessary news updates are included in the article as it is, and don't assume something which is unclear. I heavily suspect that the organization is finished, though, according to current evidence. Heimbach himself has essentially been disowned by nearly all others in the far-right/White Nationalist movement, his wife is seeking custody of their children and a divorce, (and even set up a gofundme page), and Heimbach will certainly face hard time in prison, as he was on parole for battery/assault and has priors.2601:982:4200:A6C:18F:79C9:D679:9C6 (talk) 12:23, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do sources mention this crowdfunding campaign and confirm that it's legitimate? Either way this should absolutely not be mentioned in the article without reliable independent sources. Grayfell (talk) 23:50, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Website

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I hid the links to the official website tradworker.org since it is currently inactive. I think it makes sense to retain this information until the status of the organization becomes more clear. –dlthewave ☎ 17:42, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox proposal

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Do we feel that it would be appropriate to change the status of the group in the infobox to read "Active (disputed)" or "Disputed"? I'm aware of the earlier conversations about reservations to declaring the org defunct, but I believe that given the statement from Parrott regarding the organization's disbanding that it may be slightly more accurate to change the status to what I proposed, since we didn't feel there was conclusive enough evidence to declare it defunct. Etzedek24 (Would it kill ya to leave an edit summary?) 18:02, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No. We wait for reliable sources to report that the group has disbanded. Until then, there is no reason to change its status. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:17, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not proposing that. The sources available at best, put the group's status in dispute. Etzedek24 (Would it kill ya to leave an edit summary?) 21:58, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To have a "dispute", you need reliable sources which each say something different about the group's status - that's not the case. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:56, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as is for now; it's not material what the infobox currently says, so I suggest we maintain the status quo, until reliable sources report any updates. Even then, there's no rush. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:55, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wouldn't object to removing the field completely, but my !vote is to keep it as-is. While sources indicate that the organization can look forward to a bright and promising future of not existing, it's not clear that Parrott has the authority to actually disband the group. Let's wait a bit and see what sources have to say. Grayfell (talk) 00:16, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Al Jazeera says that the group "ostensibly collapsed", which seems like as good a way to put it as any, but again, probably better to wait until something a bit more substantial comes along. Grayfell (talk) 00:25, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Couple more sources listing TWP as disbanded. SPLC says that TWP members rolls are being politely annexed and rebranded by rival leaders. The rebranded organization will be called "Nationalist Initiative," and will have no surface level connection to the TWP. On another note, the articles suggest intense in-fighting and splintering into increasingly factional and hostile cliques. The major organizations, and all at each other's throats, seem to be Identity Evropa, Daily Stormer, The Right Stuff, Christopher Cantwell's group, Stormfront, and at the far end, terrorist organizations such as Atomwaffen.[1][2]2601:982:4200:A6C:9459:D3F9:E9FF:76D (talk) 22:50, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/04/02/when-big-tent-collapses-private-discord-posts-offer-honest-look-perpetually-dishonest
  2. ^ https://mic.com/articles/188806/leaked-neo-nazi-chat-room-shows-a-movement-self-destructing-in-real-time#.VjGK7lRFr

TYN

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Hello, can someone with editing permissions for this article please change: "Traditional Youth Network" to "Traditional Youth Network (TYN)", in the introduction? TYN is referenced in History -> Traditionalist Worker Party, second paragraph, but the abbreviation is not indicated before that; it was unclear what it meant until re-reading the introduction. Sawta (talk) 12:47, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:14, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 April 2019

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2605:E000:A44D:9200:6D13:45FB:FFAC:381B (talk) 02:13, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add Neo-fascism template onto the upper portion of their page as well as the neo-Nazism template at the bottom. I also want you to add the Unicorn Riot report on the TWP Discord leaks which I have through their article [16] including a link to the to their thread about the leaks [17] 10:44 April 2, 2019 (UTC)

 Partly done: Neo-Nazism template added. For the neo-fascism template you'll need a reliable source and for the Discord leaks as well. MrClog (talk) 11:00, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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