Talk:Tocharians/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Misleading Etymology Section

The etymology section is quite misleading. It mentions how the word "Tocharian" is based on Tokharistan, and that their inhabitants spoke Bactrian, but it failed to mention that the people, the Yuezhi, who Tokharistan was named after, originally spoke a Tocharian language before the migration of the Great Gara to Bactria. When I first read this article, I thought "Tokharoi" was based off of a completely Iranic term, but actually the people for which it was named after were Tocharian themselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.14.187.118 (talk) 03:03, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

It is accurate that the name assigned by Müller and Sieg and Siegling is now generally considered a misnomer. What the Yuezhi spoke before they migrated to Bactria is a matter of conjecture, as there is no record of their language before the Bactrian texts. Kanguole 08:00, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Genetics still missing!

A genetics chapter is still missing, understandable because genes do not talk. Up to now there is no convincing genetic evidence linking the writers of the earliest Tocharian texts to the finds allegedly being Tocharian in the Tarim basin, let alone around Ürümqi.HJHolm (talk) 06:17, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

There seems to be no reason to have a genetics section in this article. The genetics of the Tarim mummies is covered in Tarim mummies#Genetic studies and this article points out that any connection between the mummies and Tocharian speakers is speculation. Unless some genetic evidence from the ancient Tocharian-speaking cities is published, there's nothing more to say. Kanguole 11:37, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Exactly this information clears the situation and definitely belongs into the text which I dare to insert!2A02:8108:9640:AC3:7C71:C463:E77A:18A2 (talk) 07:59, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

No, the lack of a Genetics section is due to the lack of genetic analyses from the ancient Tocharian-speaking cities, just like any other the article on an ancient population. That is the only way any relationship with the Tarim mummies could be established. Kanguole 08:11, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Manichaeism

The Arzhang (Middle Persian: Ārdahang; Persian: ارژنگ, romanized: Aržang/Arzhang; Coptic: Eikōn; Parthian: dw bwngʾhyg [dō bunɣāhīg], meaning "Worthy"), also known as the Book of Pictures, was one of the holy books of Manichaeism. It was written and illustrated by its prophet, Mani, in Syriac, with later reproductions written in Sogdian. It was unique as a sacred text in that it contained numerous pictures designed to portray Manichaean cosmogony, which were regarded as integral to the text.The original Arzhang illustrated by Mani has been lost and its exact content is unknown. However, it is known that its illustrations were of appreciable quality, and copies were preserved in the Middle East as late as 1092 AD, when it is recorded that the library of Ghazni held a copy. Since the discovery of Manichaean artwork during the German Turfan expeditions, scholars began piecing together the style of the Arzhang and reassessed the influence of Manichaean art in genera (पाटलिपुत्रMitrayasna (talk) 16:19, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Possibly. Do you have a reference + quotes for this? पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 18:01, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Zhang Qian

Regarding the sentence

Zhang Qian travelled the area westward to visit Central Asia, during the 2nd century BC.

which was tagged as citation needed, the new reference (Markey, "China's Western Horizon: Beijing and the New Geopolitics of Eurasia", p120) does not support this, saying only

The emissary Zhang Qian, remembered in the Han dynasty annals for his travels through Central Asia in the second century BCE and for mentioning the existence of "Shendu" (India), is also credited for opening China's imperial relations with Parthia.

We do not know what route Zhang Qian took on his way west. The source text (in Shiji and Han Shu) says only that he rushed westward from the Xiongnu to Dayuan. I will therefore remove the above sentence. Kanguole 23:22, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for giving this much attention to detail, however, with all due respect, I think deleting the sentence is a stretch. While my original source might not have explicitly stated that Zhang Qian went through the Tarim Basin, it did mention that he took the caravan route. Now, I do think that everything on this project should be as accurately cited as possible, so I don't see any wrong in removing this citation. But to say that the statement is unsupportable based on our own readings of the Shiji or Han Shu is original research. Most secondary sources I have seen do lend enough weight to the view that Zhang Qian went through the Tarim Basin, both westward and eastward. So we could just re-word the content and re-cite it.

From Thant Myint-U, p.47: After many grueling years of travel and barbarian captivity, he eventually found his way across the desert wastes of the Tarim Basin to what is now Afghanistan, before returning home a hero to the Han court.

From Brunn, Toops and Gilbreath, p.24: Zhang Qian did travel from Chang'an (Xi'an) to the Tarim Basin, Fergana Valley, Bactria (Afghanistan) and Sogdiana (Uzbekistan) and brought this knowledge back to the Han court

From Mairs, p.367: Zhang Qian returned to China, he took the route along the southern mountains of the Tarim basin (Sima: 3159).

From di Cosmo, p.396:

Extended content

The discovery of ancient societies of Central Asia (the "Western Regions" of Chinese Historical texts) is associated wjth the expedition of Zhang Qiang, the envoy sent by the emperor Wudi (140-87 B.C.) to explore the West in an attempt to find allies against the nomadic empire od the Xiongnu (Gardiner-Gardner [1986]). Zhang Qian spent years in Central Asia, partly travelling, partly held in captivity by the Xiongnu. The knowledge gathered by Zhang Qiang, naturally coloured by the circumstances of the mission, still constitutes the basis of our understanding of the societies around the Tarim Basin. Of these, [...] forty seven are located in the Tarim basin adjacent regions, including the Pamirs, the Tianshan mountains, the Ili region, and eastern Xinjiang"

I just don't see how we could have a subsection about the Tarim Basin without mentioning such an important event, however we choose to phrase it. - Hunan201p (talk) 17:25, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

We know that he returned by the southern route (i.e. not through the Tocharian cities). We don't know his outward route. The only one of these citations that comes close to saying is Brunn et al, and that quote is very vague. Kanguole 17:37, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

You have found a general history of China that gives a brief account of Zhang Qian's mission, saying its object was an alliance with the Kangju. However, there are several more specialist sources that discuss Zhang Qian's mission in detail, e.g.

• Hulsewé, A.F.P. (1979). China in Central Asia, the Early Stage: 125 B.C.–A.D. 23: An Annotated Translation of Chapters 61 and 96 of the History of the Former Han Dynasty. Leiden: E.J. Brill. p. 41. ISBN 978-90-04-05884-2.
• Millward, James A. (2021). Eurasian Crossroads: A History of Xinjiang (new and revised ed.). London: Hurst & Company. p. 20. ISBN 978-1-78738-334-0.
• Yü, Ying-shih (1986). "Han foreign relations". In Twitchett, Dennis; Loewe, Michael (eds.). The Cambridge History of China, Volume 1: The Ch'in and Han Empires, 221 BC–AD 220. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 377–462. ISBN 978-0-521-24327-8. p. 407.

They state explicitly that the aim of the mission was to secure an alliance with the Yuezhi against the Xiongnu, and they explain why the Han thought this a good prospect: they knew that the Yuezhi had suffered a disastrous defeat at the hands of the Xiongnu in Gansu and fled west. They also state that on the outward leg, after escaping from the Xiongnu heartland north of the Gobi, Zhang Qian headed west to the Ili Valley, the last known location of the Yuezhi, which seems not to fit with Gerscher's colourful story about the Tarim. He then followed the trail of the Yuezhi though several lands, including Kangju, until he finally found them on the Amu Darya, but was unable to interest them in revenge against the Xiongnu. Kanguole 00:02, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

infobox

I have reverted a change from {{infobox ethnic group}} to {{infobox country}}, because the topic of this article is not a former country, but a people, who lived in several city-states. Kanguole 19:30, 12 February 2023 (UTC)