Talk:Tito (disambiguation)

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On 1 July 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Tito to Tito (disambiguation). The result of the discussion was moved.

Redirect really necessary?

Is [Josip Broz Tito] really so famous as being "Tito" that every person who types in "Tito" should be redirected straight to this article? He's clearly not the only famous person to go by Tito. For example, there's Tito Jackson of the Jackson 5, and Dennis Tito, the space tourist. I think there should be a disambiguation page for "Tito", rather than a redirect to Josip Broz Tito. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.136.152.210 (talk • contribs) 17 July 2005

If you examine Special:Whatlinkshere/Tito, you will find that most articles referring to "Tito" mean this person, so the redirect is valid. A disambiguation page can be made at Tito (disambiguation) and linked from here, though. --Joy [shallot] 21:53, 17 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It appears people have been strangely diligent about not linking to Tito - after a recent misplaced anonymous edit here, I checked and there were only two references to it, both to the generic meaning. I also checked the stats for WP:PRIMARYTOPIC:

http://stats.grok.se/en/latest90/Tito - 10622 hits
http://stats.grok.se/en/latest90/Tito%20%28disambiguation%29 - 1368 hits

So that's 12.87% wrong. A bit much, so I googled books:

http://www.google.com/search?q=tito&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1&pws=0 - Of the first ten, three are about Josip Broz, then two about Tito Puente, then another one about JB, then another one about Puente, then one about Mozart's opera La clemenza di Tito, and the tenth about JB. On the second page, JB and Puente appear again, but the rest is random - Dennis Tito, several authors named Tito, and even some fictional character by the name of Tito Amato.

So I checked some of those:

http://stats.grok.se/en/latest90/Josip%20Broz%20Tito - 127708 hits
http://stats.grok.se/en/latest90/Tito%20Puente - 34671 hits
http://stats.grok.se/en/latest90/La%20clemenza%20di%20Tito - 10969 hits
http://stats.grok.se/en/latest90/Dennis%20Tito - 13738 hits
http://stats.grok.se/en/latest90/Tito%20Amato - 8 hits - no article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search/Tito_Amato shows the article about the author - 434 hits

So some of it could be a fluke, but the ratio 127708 : 59378 doesn't bode well for the automatic continuation of the status of a primary topic. I've therefore disambiguated it, leaving JB at the top - if someone wants to make the primary topic argument, they should make it. (I'll notify some of the editors of the old Tito redirect.) --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:38, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

BTW per above comment, there's also:

http://stats.grok.se/en/latest90/Tito%20Jackson - 148395 hits

but the vast majority of it is a spike in late July, probably because of that drama in the news. If we take instead

http://stats.grok.se/en/latest30/Tito%20Jackson - 22355 hits

and extrapolate that in the rawest manner possible -- multiply it by 3 -- we still get 67k hits there, which makes a further dent in the continued assumption of primary topic. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:52, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the meantime we got new tools to analyze outgoing page views, and https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Tito shows more than 95% of outgoing page views going to JB (i.e. less than 5% going elsewhere). Oddly enough, the next entry in the list is the Tito–Stalin split, which is in the same context, but that's not actually linked from this disambiguation page so I don't know how that happens to be in the data. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:28, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I checked WikiNav again, and now it's even more slanted, and in fact the top level graph shows 1.46k clicks going to Josip Broz on the right hand side, and substantially less than that on the left hand side, which is confusing (where is the difference?). Nobody seems to have complained about the full disambiguation since 2012, so the lack of WP:PTOPIC application (certainly by usage, possibly by long-term significance) doesn't seem to be bothering anyone despite high traffic, which is curious. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:32, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Joy: 'Outgoing pageviews' make it seem like everything from this disambig is going to either Josip Broz Tito or TITO from the bottom of the page with c. 99% to the former. It's as if absolutely nothing is going to other articles, but I'm not sure whether it just means insignificant outgoing pageviews are not documented. That said, I definitely think Broz is, globally, the WP:PTOPIC for 'Tito', while Tito Jackson and Dennis Tito might be contenders just within the United States. –Vipz (talk) 10:23, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve made a request at WP:RMTR to move the article so a redirect can take its place. Clearest primary topic I’ve seen in some time. Sceptre (talk) 11:36, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is proof enough that this guideline isn't actually clear. --Joy (talk) 14:09, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The outgoing graph accounts for recorded outgoing clicks, but not the entire mapping of incoming to outgoing. Over the last few months I've seen it show a picture that confused a lot of us. The most interesting statistic I see is how the ratio of total incoming 1.8k maps to outgoing, and for Josip Broz that is 1.27k in February '23, so ~70% of people chose to click through to the first entry, while ~30% didn't. From my observations over the last few... decades... I think this is sufficient to indicate that there is no big benefit to a primary redirect and our guideline on that enables too much short-circuiting. Readers looking for Josip Broz Tito don't seem to be badly served, because a lot of them are clearly getting to where they want. It's actually bit less clear that the list is helpful to those who are looking for other topics, because if the topmost and the bottommost links are the most clicked ones, maybe there's something missing in the middle. --Joy (talk) 09:01, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus WP:PTOPIC (non-admin closure) {{replyto|SilverLocust}} (talk) 10:29, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tito → Tito (disambiguation) – There exists an indisputable WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Tito, namely Josip Broz Tito. WikiNav statistics of this disambiguation page show a devastating 98% outgoing traffic towards Josip Broz Tito. The next most popular outgoing link (with 0.8% of traffic), Tito Jackson, is never referred to mononymously as "Tito", while Josip Broz is frequently referred to as so. Much like Lenin redirects to Vladimir Lenin and Ataturk redirects to Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, Tito must redirect to Josip Broz Tito. 〜 Festucalex • talk 09:44, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would advise anyone looking here to also scroll up and have a look at the many years of examination of this issue in the section above, before trusting these kinds of extraordinary claims. This is at this point a classic case of us observing in practice how a blunt application of WP:PTOPIC is not actually necessary for the average reader. Apparently, thousands of people every month see this list and navigate to the most popular topic, and someone notices this to be "wrong" a decade later. The stats only reach to 2015, [1], but we can safely say we're over 300,000 views into this scheme, so going wild over this would not be sensible. --Joy (talk) 14:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Joy: Do you mind explaining why a primary redirect is "going wild"? Seems a pretty mundane thing to me, and one which would shave off an unnecessary step for most readers. There must be a really good reason if we're to arbitrarily exclude Tito from (blunt?) WP:PRIMARYTOPIC guidelines. 〜 Festucalex • talk 17:29, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
By "going wild" I was referring to your use of "devastating" and "must" :) Josip Broz is not excluded from the guidelines, we've just been weighing the usage and long-term significance in a way that doesn't relegate the other Tito traffic to a hatnote. --Joy (talk) 07:40, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Rather astonished it goes to disambiguation page. Doesn't get more primary than this. Walrasiad (talk) 16:41, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Walrasiad can you explain why it doesn't? Because e.g. WikiNav for May '23 showing 2k incoming views and 1.42k going to the proposed primary topic is ~71%, that means we already see ~29% not going there. If we were to see a hatnote getting similar ratios of click traffic, it would indicate that a bad primary redirect. --Joy (talk) 07:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Because Tito was a freaking giant of 20th Century history, known the world over. Walrasiad (talk) 15:37, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support very surprised that there was every any doubt about the primary topic here. PatGallacher (talk) 21:01, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support the primary topic solely referred to as "Tito". ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:39, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Zxcvbnm I don't think there's anything in WP:PTOPIC that advises preferring mononymous usage for primary topic selection. --Joy (talk) 07:46, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:PTM states that disambiguations are for that word only; not a search index for related words. Most likely this page itself ought to be moved to Tito (name), a set index article. What's left on the resultant disambiguation page are nowhere near primary. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:19, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is a recurring argument - human names are not partial title matches, people are in fact referred to under their given names and surnames and this usage is ambiguous in the real world (that's why they also get disambiguated there). --Joy (talk) Joy (talk) 09:49, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Joy—people are in fact referred to under their given names and surnames—you forget that "Tito" was, in fact, a nom-de-plume mononym chosen by a certain Mr. Josip Broz during his undercover political days, writing articles for the Party journal under it. He continues to be mononymously referred to, in primary and secondary sources, as "Tito". 〜 Festucalex • talk 09:55, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is orthogonal, please see the argument I was responding to above. --Joy (talk) 09:59, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reply What some people describe as a blunt application of WP:PTOPIC looks to me like an accurate application of this guideline, some people may even be challenging this guideline. Statistics aren't crucial, people are entitled to apply their common sense and knowledge of the wide world. PatGallacher (talk) 15:05, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The issue with this is that common sense isn't really common worldwide, and knowledge of 20th-century communist world and non-aligned movement history among average English readers isn't necessarily so widespread that the long-term significance of this Tito overwhelms the combined significance of all other Titos to the extent described by the primary topic guidelines. Note also that I harbor no particular prejudice for this particular case (au contraire, this one happens to be related to my country so I'm quite happy you all are so informed about this Tito), rather, I think the same way about a lot of other topics. --Joy (talk) 19:11, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Apple (disambiguation) gets comparable pageviews to this one and Josip Broz's article about 24 times as many. I'm not seeing a real downside to forcing readers who do an internal search on 'Tito' to go through a hatnote. If this goes through, we should consider moving the page Josip Broz Tito to Tito. Srnec (talk) 15:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support This move should have been made years ago. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 21:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I can't believe this isn't already a primary redirect. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:29, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Done Dr. Vogel (talk) 12:18, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

followup to move

Since the move, we've seen the pattern of traffic at "Tito" change significantly:

https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2015-07&end=2023-12&pages=Tito%7CTito_(disambiguation)

Where between mid-2019 and mid-2023 it had averaged ~2-3k views/month, this quickly dropped to ~0.7k views/month after the move. The numbers are:

2023-08: Tito 731 disambiguation 231
2023-09: Tito 781 disambiguation 261
2023-10: Tito 697 disambiguation 231
2023-11: Tito 767 disambiguation 283
2023-12: Tito 647 disambiguation 208

In the meta:Research:Wikipedia clickstream archive we can confirm a part of those in identifiable clickstreams:

clickstream-enwiki-2023-08.tsv:Josip_Broz_Tito Tito_(disambiguation) link 148
clickstream-enwiki-2023-09.tsv:Josip_Broz_Tito Tito_(disambiguation) link 164
clickstream-enwiki-2023-10.tsv:Josip_Broz_Tito Tito_(disambiguation) link 160
clickstream-enwiki-2023-11.tsv:Josip_Broz_Tito Tito_(disambiguation) link 199
clickstream-enwiki-2023-12.tsv:Josip_Broz_Tito Tito_(disambiguation) link 112

Because the clickstreams have filtering, and because the previous organic traffic at the disambiguation page name was negligible, and the general traffic pattern now seems to match, it seems likely that some of the traffic just consistently goes under the radar.

The ratios would be:

2023-08: raw traffic vs total redirect trafic ~31.6% identifiable traffic vs total redirect trafic ~20.2%
2023-09: raw traffic vs total redirect trafic ~33.4% identifiable traffic vs total redirect trafic ~21%
2023-10: raw traffic vs total redirect trafic ~33.1% identifiable traffic vs total redirect trafic ~23%
2023-11: raw traffic vs total redirect trafic ~36.9% identifiable traffic vs total redirect trafic ~26%
2023-12: raw traffic vs total redirect trafic ~32.1% identifiable traffic vs total redirect trafic ~17.3%

So this could mean that the primary redirect is good for between ~66% and ~80% of the readers, while there's a clearly visible minority of between ~20% and ~33% who have to reach for the navigational aid because they aren't in the right place because of the primary redirect.

I'm actually happy this seems to match the ~29% finding from 2023-05 noted in the previous discussion, because it generally confirms our understanding of these statistics. It's also interesting that it's closer to the ~33% than to the ~20%. --Joy (talk) 18:00, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For reference, in the same months, this is the list of identifiable topics within that minority:

Expand for a view of clickstreams from Tito (disambiguation)

clickstream-enwiki-2023-08.tsv:Tito_(disambiguation)    Josip_Broz_Tito link    20
clickstream-enwiki-2023-08.tsv:Tito_(disambiguation)    Tito_Jackson    link    10
clickstream-enwiki-2023-09.tsv:Tito_(disambiguation)    Josip_Broz_Tito link    18
clickstream-enwiki-2023-10.tsv:Tito_(disambiguation)    Josip_Broz_Tito link    17
clickstream-enwiki-2023-10.tsv:Tito_(disambiguation)    Tito_Santana    link    15
clickstream-enwiki-2023-11.tsv:Tito_(disambiguation)    Josip_Broz_Tito link    23
clickstream-enwiki-2023-11.tsv:Tito_(disambiguation)    Tito_Jackson    link    13
clickstream-enwiki-2023-11.tsv:Tito_(disambiguation)    TITO    link    10
clickstream-enwiki-2023-12.tsv:Tito_(disambiguation)    TITO    link    10
clickstream-enwiki-2023-12.tsv:Tito_(disambiguation)    Josip_Broz_Tito link    17

So there's evidence of a handful of people each month either going back and forth or navigating to the disambiguation list from somewhere else yet looking for the primary topic. Likewise there's some traffic going to TITO,

Expand for a view of clickstreams from TITO

clickstream-enwiki-2023-08.tsv:TITO     Tito_(disambiguation)   link    10
clickstream-enwiki-2023-09.tsv:TITO     Tito_(disambiguation)   link    15
clickstream-enwiki-2023-11.tsv:TITO     Tito_(disambiguation)   link    16
clickstream-enwiki-2023-12.tsv:TITO     Tito_(disambiguation)   link    14

Yet all that can be identified there is going to the lowercased version. --Joy (talk) 18:28, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since then, we've had another nine months of data:

Expand for a view of clickstreams from Tito (disambiguation)

From meta:Research:Wikipedia clickstream:

clickstream-enwiki-2024-01.tsv: Tito_(disambiguation) Josip_Broz_Tito link 14

clickstream-enwiki-2024-02.tsv: Tito_(disambiguation) Josip_Broz_Tito link 16

clickstream-enwiki-2024-03.tsv: Tito_(disambiguation) Josip_Broz_Tito link 15

clickstream-enwiki-2024-04.tsv:

Tito_(disambiguation) Tito_Vilanova link 37
Tito_(disambiguation) Tito_(footballer,_born_May_1985) link 25
Tito_(disambiguation) Tito_(footballer,_born_1980) link 25
Tito_(disambiguation) Tito_(footballer,_born_1946) link 25
Tito_(disambiguation) Tito_(footballer,_born_July_1985) link 24
Tito_(disambiguation) Josip_Broz_Tito link 23
Tito_(disambiguation) Tito_(footballer,_born_1943) link 11
Tito_(disambiguation) TITO link 10
total: 180 to 8 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-05.tsv: Tito_(disambiguation) Josip_Broz_Tito link 19

clickstream-enwiki-2024-06.tsv:

Tito_(disambiguation) Josip_Broz_Tito link 17
Tito_(disambiguation) TITO link 10
total: 27 to 2 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-07.tsv: Tito_(disambiguation) Josip_Broz_Tito link 20

clickstream-enwiki-2024-08.tsv: Tito_(disambiguation) Josip_Broz_Tito link 20

clickstream-enwiki-2024-09.tsv:

Tito_(disambiguation) Tito_Jackson link 54
Tito_(disambiguation) Josip_Broz_Tito link 30

WikiNav [2] for September says 30 filtered. Also the incoming traffic from other than the hatnote was 107 ext. search, 32 other internal, 27 other empty, 10 from TITO. --Joy (talk) 11:29, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]