Talk:Thriller (album)/Archives/ 6

Eagles' Greatest Hits, a double disc album: one sale counted twice by the RIAA

I have added the important fact that The Greatest Hits by the Eagles is a double-disc compilation, and is counted twice by the RIAA, the same way MJ's double-disc History album is counted twice. On pure album sales, Thriller remains the biggest selling album in the USA and the rest of the planet. 2A02:A210:2280:9E00:1019:859:8243:678B (talk) 20:42, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Big problems with sales descriptions

The description of the sales in the article is unclear. As the enormous sales of Thriller are a major part of the subject, this is a serious problem.

• In just over a year, Thriller became the world's best-selling album, having sold an estimated 66 million copies. 66 million copies as of when? This ambiguously suggests it sold 66 million copies in over a year. (Previous wording said "and currently remains the bestselling album", but that was no less ambiguous, and badly phrased anyway.)
• only the Eagles' album Their Greatest Hits (1971–1975) has sold more copies. This isn't in the body of the article and needs explaining.
• "The Girl Is Mine" was followed by the hit single "Billie Jean", which made Thriller a chart-topper. When was this exactly? Had Thriller not hit number one in the charts before this?
• The album topped the charts in many countries, sold 4.2 million copies in the UK, 2.5 million in Japan, and was certified 15× Platinum in Australia. When? Popcornduff (talk) 16:25, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Best selling album

This article claims that "Thriller" remains the best-selling album of all time. I am sure I heard on the radio today (Monday 20 August 2018) that an album by The Eagles has now out-sold "Thriller". Vorbee (talk) 18:36, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, and Variety is reporting the same thing: https://variety.com/2018/music/news/the-eagles-greatest-hits-surpasses-michael-jacksons-thriller-as-best-selling-album-1202911115/?ref=hvper.com (I'm sure there are other sources out there too.)

Currently the article appears to outright contradict itself: "In just over a year, Thriller became—and remains—the world's best-selling album ... only the Eagles' album Their Greatest Hits (1971–1975) has sold more copies." This needs to be fixed or clarified.

I would make this change myself but there seems to have been a bit of back and forth in the editing history. What's the situation? Popcornduff (talk) 06:19, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Does nobody have any comments on this? If not I'll go ahead and remove the ambiguity and update as per the Variety source. Popcornduff (talk) 02:00, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Thriller is the best selling album of all time with over 66m copies were GH by Eagles is the best selling album ever in usa per RIAA.But One year ago RIAA was announced Thriller as the #1 album of all time with 33 million copies sales.Eagles were at 29 million copies then. Now it’s Eagles 38M, And MJ 33M.Harout72, Politsi Do you think Eagles sold 9 million albums in the past year and Jackson sold zero?.Can somebody please explain how they went from 29 million on 2017 to 38 million in 2018 with their poor streaming performance? Thriller has more than a Billion streams in streaming platforms like Spotify and YouTube.Akhiljaxxn (talk) 04:23, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't understand your comment here.

Dubmill, you've made some edits to the sales figure recently. Do you have any thoughts? Popcornduff (talk) 08:42, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Very sorry, I misunderstood. I saw the red 'light' and thought you'd reverted my edit. My comments (now deleted) were based on that misunderstanding. Dubmill (talk) 09:15, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

I haven't really looked into this, but I guess if reliable sources are now saying that the Eagles album has sold more, then the text should reflect that, while at the same stressing that all these figures are estimates. I think the commenter might have a point. It does sound a little dubious, but this is the problem with Wikipedia: it just reports what reliable sources say, even when what is said is unproven. Sorry, not very constructive. Dubmill (talk) 09:23, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Further, I see that the RIAA has redefined 'sales' to include free (but presumably official, monetised) plays on YouTube, at a rate of 1,500 YouTube plays to 1 sale. I haven't looked into this, but with regard to what the commenter said, perhaps the Eagles are very efficient at getting unauthorised uploads taken down, so all the plays are of the official monetised version on YouTube. In the case of Thriller, perhaps there are more uploads to choose from, in which case many plays might go to unauthorised uploads and not contribute to certified sales. If that were the case, might it account for the Eagles' sudden rise above Thriller? Alternatively, maybe more people want to stream the entire Eagles album, whereas with Thriller it's possible more people listen to just individual tracks, not the entire album. (I assume just playing a YouTube upload of a single track off an album doesn't contribute to that album's sales.) Dubmill (talk) 10:11, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

References

Personnel

Personnel as listed in the album's liner notes are:

• Tom Bahler – synclavier (track 5)
• Brian Banks – synthesizer (track 4), synthesizer programming (2)
• Steve Bates – assistant engineer (tracks 3 & 7–9)
• John Bettis – lyricist and composer (track 7)
• Michael Boddicker – synthesizers (tracks 1 & 2), Emulator (6–9), Vocoder (8), background vocals (1 & 2)
• Bruce Cannon – effects (track 4)
• Leon "Ndugu" Chancler – drums and background vocals (tracks 2, 6 & 8)
• Paulinho da Costa – percussion (tracks 1 & 7)
• Mark Ettel – assistant engineer (tracks 3 & 7–9)
• Matt Forger – engineer (tracks 2, 3 & 7–9)
• David Foster – synthesizer (track 3), synthesizer arrangement (3)
• Humberto Gatica – engineer (tracks 3 & 7–9)
• Gary Grant – trumpet & flugelhorn (tracks 1, 2 & 4)
• Bernie Grundman – mastering engineer (tracks 2, 3 & 7–9)
• Nelson Hayes – bathroom stomp board (track 1)
• Howard Hewett – background vocals (track 8)
• Jerry Hey – trumpet, flugelhorn and horn arrangements (tracks 1, 2 & 4), string arrangements (3 & 6), strings conductor (3)
• Bunny Hull – background vocals (tracks 1 & 8)
• James Ingram – background vocals (tracks 1 & 8), keyboards, handclaps, musical arrangements & composer (8)
• Janet Jackson – background vocals (track 8)
• La Toya Jackson – background vocals (track 8)
• Michael Jackson – co-producer (tracks 1, 3, 5 & 6), lead vocals (all tracks), programming (1 & 4), drum case beater (track 5), bathroom stomp board (1), background vocals (1, 4–7 & 9), handclaps (8), vocal arrangements (1, 3, 5 & 6), rhythm arrangements, composer & lyricist (1, 5 & 6), horn arrangements (1), synthesizer arrangements (6)
• Paul Jackson Jr. – guitar (tracks 5, 8 & 9)
• Louis Johnson – bass guitar (tracks 1, 3, 6, 8 & 9), handclaps (8)
• Quincy Jones – producer (all tracks), rhythm arrangements (tracks 1, 3 & 5), vocal arrangements (3), musical arrangements & composer (8)
• Becky Lopez – background vocals (tracks 1 & 8)
• Jerry Lubbock – strings conductor (track 6)
• Steve Lukather – guitar (tracks 3, 5 & 7), bass guitar (5), musical arrangements (7)
• Anthony Marinelli – synthesizer & synthesizer programming (tracks 2 & 4)
• Paul McCartney – lead vocals (track 3)
• David Paich – synthesizers (tracks 2, 7 & 9), piano & rhythm arrangements (3), musical arrangements (7)
• Dean Parks – guitar (tracks 3)
• Greg Phillinganes – keyboards (2 & 4), synthesizers (1, 2, 4–6 & 8), piano, Fender Rhodes (1, 3, 5, 6 & 9), synthesizer programming & handclaps (8)
• Jeff Porcaro – drums (tracks 3, 5, 7 & 9)
• Steve Porcaro – synthesizers (tracks 5, 7 & 9), synthesizer programming (2, 3, 5 & 7), musical arrangements, composer & lyricist (7)
• Vincent Price – voice-over (track 4)
• Steven Ray – bathroom stomp board (track 1), handclaps (8)
• Bill Reichenbach – trombone (tracks 1, 2 & 4)
• Greg Smith – Synergy (track 5), synthesizer (6)
• Bruce Swedien – recording engineer (All tracks), audio mixer (All tracks), effects (4)
• Chris Shepard – vibraslap (track 5)
• Rod Temperton – synthesizer (track 4), rhythm, vocal & regular arrangements & Lyricist (tracks 2, 4 & 9) composer (2 & 4)
• Eddie Van Halen – guitar solo (track 5)
• Jerry Vinci – concertmaster (track 3)
• Julia Waters – background vocals (track 1)
• Maxine Waters (Willard) – background vocals (track 1)
• Oren Waters – background vocals (track 1)
• David Williams – guitar (tracks 1, 2, 4 & 6)
• Larry Williams – saxophone & flute (tracks 1, 2 & 4)
• Bill Wolfer – keyboards (track 5), synthesizer (1 & 6), programming (6)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 February 2019

The album sold approximately 25 million copies in just over a year (eventually sold 66 million). Also the chart position of when it peaked at number one should be added. 89.241.108.216 (talk) 23:25, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

You haven't provided a source for that so this will be  Not done and which country are you referring to... Iggy (Swan) 18:11, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Weekly charts

I'm confused. Does anyone know why the weekly charts aren't listed here? The year-end and decade-end charts are but not the weekly ones. CountyCountry (talk) 03:17, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Japan

I've returned to this article to make the same reference correction three or four times[1][2][3][4]? There's nothing wrong with the footnote as it is, why it's necessary to insist on the insertion of a useless error is beyond me. DrKay (talk) 10:29, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

User:Synthwave.94: you have been told explicitly that it is an error four times. You have been told explicitly not to reinsert the error. You've been told explicitly not to undo good faith edits without explanation. What do you do? Reinsert the error without any explanation[5]. If you insert that error again, I will block you for disruption. DrKay (talk) 21:53, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

@DrKay: he’s at it again throughout the whole article. Iluvdancemusic (talk) 07:47, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Now blocked from this article. DrKay (talk) 08:23, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Iluvdancemusic has now been indefinitely blocked as another Maria sock. - SummerPhD^v2.0 17:15, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Sales numbers are myth/promotion

WP:DENY. DrKay (talk) 13:07, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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US population in 1982 was 231 million. How many of those people were over, say, 40? How many others under, say, 10? Of those left, how many didn't have disposable income? Of those left, how many didn't like Thriller? Now, with the small number left, how many who DID like Thriller either.. Lived with someone who already had a copy or Simply got a copy (home taping was killing music...) In 1984 Thriller is 'certified' for US sales of '20 million'. Such a nice round number. Not 19 million, not 21 million..precisely 20 million. It's obvious that this was pure hype, and had no basis in actual reality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk) 13:56, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

This is speculation on your part. Unless you have a reliable source, there is nothing to do here. - SummerPhD^v2.0 14:57, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

So, some guy;s blog saying "65 million sold!" is a Reliable Source, but common sense isn't? I will look for sources disputing the absurd sales claims. But the article is presently locked as well...— Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk • contribs)

No, that wouldn't be a reliable source. The reliable source saying 20 million units sold in the United States by October 1984 is the official certification body, RIAA. That is clearly a reliable source. The round figure means nothing, it was 21 million in 1990, 22 million in 1993, etc. That's merely how certifications work. You have to get to 20 million to be certified as a 20x multi-platinum album. DrKay (talk) 16:04, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

So, only the RIAA is a Reliable Source? Even if there is clearly something wrong? let's look...

https://www.riaa.com/gold-platinum/?tab_active=default-award&se=thriller+#search_section Under Thriller(album)..

MICHAEL JACKSON Title: THRILLER Certification Date: February 16, 2017 Label: EPIC RECORDS Format: ALBUM

We see it certified as Gold and Platinum on January 31, 1983. Next, it's 20xPlatinum in October 30, 1984. So, it supposedly sold 20 million copies in the USA in its first 2 years of release. And, yes, it IS highly dubious, as it's such a neat number,,20 million. Not 19 million. This is clearly promotion. Following on, it goes 21xPlatinum on May 24, 1990. So, after blitzing through twenty million in two years, it takes six years to sell the next one million. Then, it seems to get a new one-million-up a year, for the next few years. (So why was 1984-1990 so fallow?) Then, there's another "down period". And, then another burst of 4 million supposedly sold in 2015-106. Obviously, this is absurd.(And I would swear they've altered the page). This is not reality. it's pure hype. This is a 'Reliable Source' the same way 'Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction' is a reliable source. 197.86.143.140 (talk) 11:01, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Dates of certification are not necessarily identical to dates of sales. That's why we say when it was certified, not when copy number 20,000,000 was sold.

Yes, it says 20. One in five will be a multiple of 5. My father graduated college at 20. Not 19, not 21, 20. He got married at 30. Not 29, not 31, 30. (Actually, those were 20 years 1 month and several days and 30 years 8 months and 3 day.) Highly suspicious?

No, RIAA is not the only reliable source. It is a reliable source. If you do not feel it is a reliable source, please take that discussion directly to the reliable sources noticeboard as Wikipedia uses it in hundreds of thousands of articles. If you have another reliable source that argues against it, please present it here.

If you want to argue that Wikipedia should determine truth rather than verifiablity, you are arguing against one of the pillars of the project. While any policy can be changed, you will need to do so at a higher level. I'd suggest discussing the issue at WP:PUMP.

Until then, the number is verifiably 20 million. - SummerPhD^v2.0 17:08, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

So, even though it's an impossible figure, the fact that an organisation of dubious reliability says so, makes it so..according to wiki? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk • contribs)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

REFS

• 70 million copies → Zee News (by ANI)

--Apoxyomenus (talk) 07:32, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2020

The article incorrectly states that there is only one guest appearance on this album - Paul McCartney. Edward Van Halen plays the guitar solo on the song ‘Beat It’ — Please correct this error. Thanks. Pickles&Cheese (talk) 19:18, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done Van Halen is never credited as "featuring Eddie Van Halen", not even in the single release. The Girl Is Mine does it. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 23:26, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I had also come here to mention the same thing -- the strangeness of the text about McCartney as the "single guest," where we have Eddie Van Halen, Steve Lukather, and even Vincent Price on the album. But in order to be a guest, you need to be mentioned, i.e., on the record sleeve for the single? Thanks, Mcvoorhis (talk) 15:57, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2020

Link the late Bruce Swedien to his Wikipedia lemma, he deserves it. Swann (talk) 20:52, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

He was already wikilinked in the Personnel section, but I've moved the link up to his first mention in the article instead (in the Critical Reception section). ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 20:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

I've added the wikilink to his entry in the Personnel list, if that's what you mean. Popcornfud (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

It should be linked in both. Popcornfud (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2020 (UTC)