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Archive 1

Untitled

The croats did not use the v sign the used the hitler salute because they were with hitler during WW2. The bosnians used the v sign

i was told by a the mother of a serbian family that the three finger salute respresents a gesture remembering the days of when the serbian people were raided by the muslim nations and their children taken from them to be trained in the muslim armies and to be forced to return and fight against their own people so to prevent this their parents would cut of those particular three digits to prevent thenm from being forceably removed from then so the salute was a mark of defiance to show that they remembered those days and that they got to adulthood still having those three fingers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.30.108 (talk) 19:07, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Three-finger originally

There are indications and evidence that the three finger salute was used among Ustascha and Nazi soldiers. Please see the following links. [1] [forum.burek.co.yu/index.php/topic,201714.0.html ]

Yes. However, those three fingers don't have much to do with Serbian nationalist 3 fingers. It's a coincidence — they look alike, but are not the same. --★čabrilo★ 06:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but that has nothing to do with the Nazis or the Ustasha, they were using the older central-european Schwurhand. 23.242.82.2 (talk) 11:04, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Opening paragraph

Well, the three-finger salute is not apriori nationalist. It's certainly had a nationalist conotation on many occasions but that still doesn't make it inherently nationalist. If you're labeling the three-finger salute nationalist in the opening paragraph (meaning that you're inherently defining it as such) you're pushing your own narrow POV or one part of the definition onto an entire broad(er) concept. Such blanket labeling requires explanation, referencing and support and it is more appropriate within the body of the article along with other views on the subject.Zvonko 05:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm.. Are you labeling my edits as POV or as factually incorrect? People don't exactly greet each other with it, it's more of a political rally or football match kind of a thing. Anyway, let me put the burden of reasoning on you: can you source that all or most ethnic Serbs and/or citizens of Serbia use this salute regardless of their political affiliation and national feeling? I can easily source that many anti-nationalists and anti-chauvinists resent the salute. It is also verifiable that the salute is contraversial and may lead to incidents on ethnic bases. --dcabrilo 07:28, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
P.S. It's a bad form to revert after everybody else (in this case me) demonstrated good faith and willingness to discuss the issue. --dcabrilo 07:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know how much you edited but the specific edit in the opening paragraph in which you solely define the salute as nationalistic is your POV. That is what I was referring to.
As for Anyway, let me put the burden of reasoning on you: can you source that all or most ethnic Serbs and/or citizens of Serbia use this salute regardless of their political affiliation and national feeling?
The fact that obviously not all ethnic Serbs and/or citizens of Serbia use the salute doesn't in any way immediately make it nationalistic. How exactly did you make a connection between those two things?!
You're the one who made a bold claim that narrowly defines this article (three-finger salute) in certain way (as nationalistic). The burden is entirely on you to substantiate that claim. It is one thing when POV is included as a generally present viewpoint within the body of the article and quite another when such a definitive claim is made as the very definition - which is what you've done.
I didn't make any claims, you, on the other hand, did.Zvonko 09:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, lemme try. There is no academic sources on this, at least that I could find, but I will dig out the second best thing:
  1. Three fingers in music:
    1. Atheist Rap: Umesto stisnute pesnice sada dižu tri prsta / U odbranu nacije i časnoga krsta [2] (Instead of a fist, they are raising three fingers, to defend the nation and honorable (or something) cross)
    2. Luna: Zemlja krsta sa tri prsta, malo posta malo mrsa, ispracaja u vojnike, zemlja raj za neradnike [3] (Country with three fingers, some fat some fast, sending soldiers to the army, country is a heaven for those who do not work)
    3. Demonio: Pravoslavna vera, tri prsta, k'o Srbin da piše posred čela. [4] (Orthodox faith, three fingers, like Serb written on the forehead)
  2. Three fingers from Nikolaj Velimirović: Rise three fingers Orthodox Serbs! Down with all antinational elements: parasites and bloodsuckers, capitalists, godless and communists! ... Serbian national consciousness is awakened ...
  3. In news:
    1. Čulić: ... promiloševićevski unionisti u Crnoj Gori promijenili su se ... njih definitivno više ne oličavaju one spodobe s tri prsta u ruci i tri zuba u glavi. [5] (saying how pro-Milošević unionists in Montenegro become more normal and don't raise three fingers any more)
    2. Danas/Slobodna Dalmacija: Provokator s tri prsta pokrenuo bujicu udaraca [6] (some sports match, "Provocatour with three fingers started a fight"
    3. Dereta (Danas): Potom su devojke uz veseli smeh krenule sa trga. Za njima je pošla i grupa dečaka. Jedan od njih je prema Ženama u crnom mahao uzdignutom šakom pokazujući tri prsta i glasno uzviknuo: "Srbija! Srbija! Srbija!" (Some boys were protesting against Women in Black, waved their three fingers and yelled "Serbia!")
Now, go and read Nationalism. It says: Nationalism sees most human activity as national in character. Nations have national symbols, a national culture, a national music and national literature; national folklore, a national mythology and - in some cases - even a national religion. Individuals share national values and a national identity, admire the national hero, eat the national dish and play the national sport.
Your turn! (P.S. you still own me an explanation of how this is a POV and not accuracy dispute, just saying it is so doesn't explain it) --dcabrilo 17:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Just checking up on you. Do you intend to provide some references or can I edit the article? --dcabrilo 20:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

As stated above, there is no need to label the salute as "nationalist" one as there is clearly usage of the 3 fingers (most notability by professional athletes) that is not in a nationalist connotation. The nationalist connotation as perceived from usage during the Yugoslav wars is clearly stated in the article, but your giving it undue weight and pushing a POV by simply stating the salute is 'nationalist' in the opening sentence of the article. Please leave the top as a generic description, and present your sources and writeup of the nationalist connotation within the article. // laughing man 16:17, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Hold on, how is it Serb salute? Am I forced to use it because I'm from Serbia? Am I expected to? Is rising straight right arm up a German salute or a Nazi salute? Can you source that it is not nationalist? Athletes who do use it may or may not be nationalist - I took part in international athletic events, and I never, like most of my teammates, celebrated victory in such a way. There is a plenty of source to show that it is nationalist. --★čabrilo★ 19:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
No, I am saying that the salute should not labeled as "nationalist" salute in the opening, nor should it be labeled as "patriotic" to not push a POV. It should simply be described. I do feel the origins/usage/connotations sections should be expanded and cleaned up using reliable sources, unfortunately I'm having difficulty locating English language sources, but there have been reliable sources (Reuters) that have referred to the salute as a "traditional three-finger Serbian salute", with no mentions of any nationalistic connotations, but instead a patriotic connotation. [7] // laughing man 21:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Regarding "traditional" - I'm not sure that anything that is 15 years old can be considered traditional (the salute was simply not used before per se). Yes, many people think it is, but many people also think that four B's on the Serbian coat of arms are in fact cyrillic S's and other non-sense. There are MANY sources to say that this is considered a nationalist salute, and even if we want to stay clear of such labeling, we still need to make sure to put the right weight to the connotations. E.g. no leftist/pacifist/anti-nationalist/anarchist/communist would ever use that salute (e.g. see how it's mentioned here: [8] - a somewhat anarchist bunch talks about a Serbian politician who is running away from them shouting: "you communist criminals!" and showing three fingers. --★čabrilo★ 12:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup of article

  • "Nationalist" was mentioned 4 times in article, I believe that "Nationalist" standpoint is expressed clearly in current version.
  • Removed the "4 Four S's" statement, what does it have to do with 3 fingers? How is this disputed?
  • Also not sure why the Ustaše statement (unsourced) belongs in the "Three-finger salute (Serbian)" article. --Lowg 23:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Chauvinism

Please take a look at discussion above. I provided several examples of what people think of what people think of 3 fingers. Also, many people, not Bosniak or Croatian, find three fingers rather provocative and chauvinist. So please, review my arguments above, and come up with sources that state that three fingers are anything but nationalist. --dcabrilo 16:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Removed pending citation

The salute is a relatively recent invention ‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› [citation needed], based on Orthodox way of crossing, with the three fingers instead of entire hand ‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› [citation needed]. (which is associated with the Christian Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) ‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› [citation needed].

You are requesting citation for this? Is it not common knowledge? Adding:
"The salute is based on the Orthodox way of crossing, with the three fingers ::: instead of entire hand (which is associated with the Christian Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit)." source: Hajdinjak, Marko. (2000) Yugoslavia - Dismantled and Plundered http://www.ceu.hu/nation/theses/hajdinjak0001.pdf --Lowg 20:25, July 9, 2006 (EST)
Great, so add it back in. - FrancisTyers · 07:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I beg to differ. Wasn't this first used/popularized in post March 9th demonstrations, when Vuk Drašković requested some three things be done by the government? Orthodox Christianity and three fingers seem like folk explanation to me, so I'd like some more sources, please, especially since this guy doesn't source the claim in his masters thesis. --dcabrilo 07:43, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
You're welcome to present better sources. - FrancisTyers · 08:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
It might be as well, but the "holy Trinity" is a folk interpretation no matter what the real origin or intention was. The statement that the salute is relatively recent invention was removed as collateral damage, but it certainly is; it has never been used before 1990s TTBOMK. Your reference to March 9th looks plausible, but if you find a source, I'd be pleased. Duja 12:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Within Serbia itself, it is mostly used by younger people ‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› [citation needed]; it can be most often seen by fans and even players themselves when celebrating sport victories ‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› [citation needed]. It is considered nationalistic, and not always appropriate for public display ‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› [citation needed]. Members of other ethnic groups, especially Bosniaks and Croats, will often find it provocative ‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.› [citation needed].

I've removed these passages pending citation per WP:CITE and WP:VERIFY. Please don't insert unsourced statements into the article. - FrancisTyers · 17:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I also fail to see why is citation needed. As Lowg pointed out, it is common knowledge. What kind of citation would you like? For example, on a recent Gay parade in Zagreb, a participant from Serbia was arrested by Croatian police for showing the salute, for the "provocation and disturbance of public order". Francis, I think you suffer from WP:POINTitis too much. Duja 07:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
If its common knowledge there should be plenty of sources, some quotes: "If an article topic has no reputable, reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on that topic." (WP:VERIFY), "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;" (WP:NPOV). - FrancisTyers · 07:53, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The question is, if there are no reliable sources, should we have an article on this? Note: Analogies of but this other article exists and it sucks are not arguments for. - FrancisTyers · 07:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

10 Q. What is the three finger display, what does that signify? 11 A. The three fingers is a traditional Serb greeting and in the Serb 12 orthodox church epitomizes the holy trinity, father, son and the holy 13 spirit. Only Serbs use such three fingers in a greeting, nobody else 14 but the Serbs. So it is distinguished from anything else. When such 15 three fingers are shown, it means that they mean only Serbs.

From [9]

- FrancisTyers · 08:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

This Vuk Drašković chap is interesting, seems that people use the three fingers to support what he says: [10] - FrancisTyers · 08:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

sources for this Connotations section

"The salute is often perceived as a sign of Serbian chauvinism. "

Since they are not english language, can you please give me where the links you gave make this statement, I would like to tranlsate appropriate sections to verify this, and clarify the source. --Lowg 16:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

As they appear in the article:

"Nekoliko kilometara kasnije prvi incident. Iz jednog auta šibenske registracije pojavljuje se ruka sa tri prsta. Klimamo glavom dostojanstveno, znamo da ekstremisti vole da se šale na tuđ račun, ne znamo hoće li nas ako podignemo tri prsta, gađati kamenom."
"Usporedo s tim, i promiloševićevski unionisti u Crnoj Gori promijenili su se i postali relativno uljuđena proevropska stranka, što je sigurno i dio kurentne poze, ali ipak njih definitivno više ne oličavaju one spodobe s tri prsta u ruci i tri zuba u glavi. "
"Međutim, sve bi prošlo bez većeg incidenta, da se jedan iz te skupine gostiju nije podigao na stolicu i gledateljima pokazao tri prsta. Odjednom je sve uskuhalo na tribini, odmah nama za leđima. "
" The Serbian female, whose name was not released by Zagreb police, was arrested for showing the Serbian hand signal of three raised fingers. She was conditionally convicted and released."

I can't open the last link. --dcabrilo 18:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Bit more on this

There is still the line about Christianity (holy trinity) being what this is about. However, a common sense question: if this is an older or so (pre-1990) salute, how come it does not appear in photographs or paintings, nor is there a written record of it in literature prior to 1990? Also, one of the links is dead, and the other is still a masters thesis without a source. Can we get a good source on this, or I will reword it as to show that this is debatable. --dcabrilo 21:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Here are some older photographs. [11] Laughing Man 21:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Did some more research and It does seem the UN ICTY document is temporarily unavailable, but here it is on google cache [12]. (refer to page 1669). Also the thesis paper does have sources, see page 103+. Laughing Man 21:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Laughing Man, your [8] link shows people who are not Serbs using it, and the page actually argues that three finger salute is not Serbin. Look at the illustration on the top, it has the salute crossed-out on top-right. The three finger salute here is spread out, not fingers together (which is how one crosses herself). Also, the ICTY document is handfull, so can somebody help me out and say who the witness is? Finally, also the master thesis does have sources, the actual statement that three fingers have anything to do with trinity is not sourced. --dcabrilo 10:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC
Can you please try to find a source that says otherwise? You have issues with 3 sources provided, so perhaps you can find some that supports your theory? Laughing Man 17:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I added the ICTY link, I think, just to illustrate that it's perceived as offensive by Bosniaks, Croats and Albanians. You won't find the origin there. Duja 19:02, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
No, it was added by Francis later, but I'm not sure if it was misplaced or it does contain something about it... Duja 19:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Laughing Man, one of those three sources in fact "supports my theory" ([13]). I mean, if your goal is to prove that the folk theory is that it has something to do with Christianity, good, but we are yet to find any reliable and authorative sources on the matter. I only found "my theory" mentioned on Internet forums, so nothing of substance. And we still have an issue with the salute never appearing before 1990s. But, to summarize, the problems with the sources are: 1) CZIPM source argues that it was NOT used before 1990s, 2) Master thesis does not source its claim, 3) ICTY document is a statement by an anonymous witness. So, unless anybody objects, I will reword the article to say that we aren't sure what the salute means, but that there is a common folk explanation (trinity thing). --dcabrilo 22:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Dujo, the ICTY document has a witness saying that it has something to do with the theory. But I personally have no idea who the witness was. Somebody help if you will. --dcabrilo 22:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I object with changing to "we aren't sure", it seems you are not sure, and you can not find a source to support this. I feel that it would be more helpful to this article if you spent your energy on finding better sources, instead of trying to find problems with the current ones. Please try to remember NOR and find some sources. Thanks // Laughing Man 22:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, my source: CZIPM. The problem is that there are no sources to prove that the trinity explanation is not folk explanation. If you have one, please provide us with that. --dcabrilo 22:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Guess what? Another source :) "Naša borba", 1997, interview with Drašković who says that three fingers are a symbol of SPO, right here: [14]. Your turn :) --dcabrilo 23:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Laughing Man, another thing: I have _every right_ to question the sources. Nothing stops me from putting up a page on the Internet saying whatever I want to. Instead of just saying that they are there, help me out and show me how any one of the two is reliable. --dcabrilo 23:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
No one said you didn't, but a master thesis and an ICTY hearing is not just "a page on the Internet". I don't know what else you are expecting. // Laughing Man 03:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The ICTY link is dead at the moment, and it wasn't established yet what it actually contained. I think I read it at a time, and, while my memory is failing, it contained a witnessing about Serb soldiers' provocative use of the salute towards Muslims. OTOH, while ICTY judgement could be authoritative whether a war crime was committed, I fail to see how it could be relevant in establishing the origin of the salute. As far as I skimmed over the ICTY document, it is the witnessing of (protected?) witness P which explained the supposed origin of the salute as: The three fingers is a traditional Serb greeting and in the Serb orthodox church epitomizes the holy trinity.... I don't see where is established that the witness is an expert on the subject. I agree with dcabrilo that the Holy Trinity is a back-formation and a folk etymology rather than the meaning that was initially intended, and all evidence I've seen supports the theory that it originates from March 9 demonstrations led by SPO. I don't recall ever seeing it before that. Duja 08:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Duja is right, the witness in the ICTY does not have the authority of the ICTY, only of himself. I also agree that the "Holy Trinity" explanation does have the ear of being a "folk" explanation, if a widely repeated one. - FrancisTyers · 10:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

new references

Alright - I now sourced that it was in fact popularized and invented as such by Vuk Drašković. You can Google for combination of "tri prsta" and "Vuk Drašković" to get many more sources claiming the same, although unreliable. I only included journalist sources in it. --★čabrilo★ 06:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you please list what section of the references you are using, as it will help non-native speakers verify the source, thank you. // laughing man 18:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
From [15]: Otkako je nekadašnji vođa srpske opozicije Vuk Drašković, pre desetak godina, iz samo njemu znanih razloga lansirao pozdrav sa "tri prsta" kao osnovni srpski simbol, nije se desilo da se lokalno izborno telo striktno i prepoznatljivo podeli na bilo kakva tri dela, niti da broj tri igra bilo kakvu značajnu ulogu u ovdašnjem političkom životu ("treći put" ili nešto slično, nepoznanica su u ovdašnjim prilikama).], first paragraph: Ever since the then-leader of the Serbian opposition, Vuk Drašković, 10 years ago, for reasons known only to himself, launched the "three finger" salute as the primary Serbian symbol, it did not happen that the local electoral body divides itself into three parts...
From [16], 7th paragraph: "Three finders are a symbol that was introduced by Vuk Drašković during demonstrations in Belgrade on 13 March 1991. Serbian Renewal Movement had three demands, and one of them was to release all people arrested for 9th March. That was our symbol of fight for change, although it took a lot of time for that symbol to be adopted it is clearly now adopted. I don't mind Serbian Radicals using it today" - says Srećković. (Srećković is a vice president of the Serbian Renewal Movement). This source also mentions that three fingers (albeit in a different form and shape) were used by Ustashe, which is mentioned in one other source here - but really has nothing to do with three fingers we are talking about here. --★čabrilo★ 19:34, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Looking at this further, this seems to be from Kurir, which seems to be a tabloid akin to the National Enquirer here in the United States. I don't think we should be using this a reliable source. Can you please provide the us what you are using from the B92 source? // laughing man 20:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
While Kurir is not the pinnacle of journalism of sure, it is from a interview in it. If you can find a law suit to discredit the interview, then use it. Feel free to search B92 if you'd like though. --★čabrilo★ 13:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
And another thing. I did translate you the B92 source, but screwed up the formating. Fixed now. Finally, I provided two good sources that it was invented by Vuk Drašković, while there are no good sources to show that it has a religious meaning. --★čabrilo★ 13:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Recent "edit war"

As I engaged in a sort of an edit war, I would like to try to pose some questions regarding this article and get community's input before I proceed.

  • Introduction: We are currently "warring" between "Three fingers" being a "Serb" and a "Serb nationalist" salute. This salute is certainly not universally Serbian as it is used only by people of certain beliefs/ideology, as can be seen in sources that state what sort of incidents and reactions this salute uses. I don't think it is fair to say that it is a "Serb(ian) salute" - it can not be generalized in that way. In fact, I attended many meeting and street gatherings in Belgrade where opponents of the meeting raised three fingers in provocation and protest against it. So, not EVERYBODY uses it and not everybody finds it appropriate that it is ever used.
  • Sources for origin section: We have four sources for this: 1) A B92 column. 2) An interview in Kurir. 3) A master thesis. 4) An ICTY anonymous witness. The 4) one is just a statement by an anonymous person, and we can't verify it. I wouldn't call it a source at all. The master thesis only mentions the salute, but proves in no way the origin or meaning of it. B92 column also only mentions it, but the author relies on memory of the event. Finally, the Kurir interview has insider information. While Kurir is not a reputable source, there are no claims that the interview is fake (and I checked if there were any).
  • So, my questions are: how do we phrase the introductory sentence and which sources do we accept? --★čabrilo★ 14:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Milan Nedic and Three finger salute

As far as I know Milan Nedic,serbian fascist from ww2 developed that salute.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 17:54, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a blind guess and you are completely incorrect. The three finger salute, however long it's been in use, draws its roots from the Serbian Orthodox Christian Church and is nothing more than a visual representation of the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) held in high esteem by Orthodox Christian Serbs ( see here, here and here). Three fingers are displayed by most Serbs for the same reason that Orthodox Serbs cross themselves with three fingers and for the same exact reason that Serbs greet their familiy members by kissing them on the cheek three times - to honour their religious belief of God as he appears in all three forms. It's a religious gesture that is used in good faith by most Serbs but has taken a different connotation during ethnic hostilities in WWII and the Yugoslav wars which still changes nothing about it's origins.
As far as Nedic is concerned, not only does the salute predate Nedic, one would have to completely ignore the fact that Serbian people starting back in WWII (including both royalists and communists) uniformily see Nedic as a traitor and, thus, would never have accepted this salute as their own display of pride and patriotism if it was developed by a person that is seen as a traitor by everyone using that same salute. Please research your facts before you enter a discussion midway through.
Thanks.
SWik78 (talk) 16:19, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Swik, could you provide us with a photo of Serbs using this salute prior to 1990? Also, could you provide us with a source confirming your theory from a theologian or, better yet, a historian? You provided folk theories there. --★čabrilo★ 15:44, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

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Ctrl-Alt-Del Reference

Is it possible to include the "Ctrl-Alt-Del" (or similiar) key combination in this article, as it is sometimes refered to as the Three-finger salute? The Snuffster (talk) 10:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Got a source? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 21:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Pavelic

Reference for this claim was given in informal talk with politician ("at basketball game with Dacic"). Dacic said: "To je lansirao poglavnik Pavelić kad je izašao sa povijesnog susreta sa vođom Rajha Adolfom Hitlerom, on je pozdravio tada sa tri prsta. Ma, gluposti su to, ali..." or translated to English "Three fingered salute was launched by Pavelic, after historical meeting with A.H. when he saluted with three fingers. This is all stupid, but..."

I hardly see that this can be reference for mentioned claim. However, there is a photo of Pavelic's gesture [17], where you can see that it is similar gesture, but not the same. Further more, this has nothing to do with Serbian salute, and Serbian salute is what this article is about.

This would be the same like mentioning that Silvia Saint is also using this salute, like in this photo from Commons.

On the other hand, Pavelic is quite often mentioned as creator of this salute, although I saw no verifiable evidence of Serbian usage before 1990.

I think this claim should be modified like this: "There are photos of Pavelic showing similar gesture, but with different meaning from Serbian salute." --Irić Igor -- Ирић Игор -- K♥S (talk) 21:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I edited the article. These two salutes, have no connections except likeness.


Serious Issues

The three finger salute (OPEN) is a croat nazi fabrication, brought about into popularity by anti-serbian serbian people. The real serbian salute was with three CLOSED fingers, like when we cross ourselves. We need to make this clear in the article. (LAz17 (talk) 17:06, 29 January 2009 (UTC)).

Tri prsta salute is very popular in Serbia today and became our new tradition. Foreigners recognize it for Serbian salute. With three closed fingers we cross ourselves and we shows opened tri prsta as a salute.... Where is the problem ?! Ustaše used similar salute but the meaning is totaly different and that is said in the article...
The ustasha used this same three finger salute. True, this is popular in serbia today, among seljaks and whatnot, but it is still not serbian. If we are to havea three finger salute, we should include both the closed fingers and open fingers in the description. (LAz17 (talk) 17:11, 31 May 2009 (UTC)).
The fact that Ustasha had this salute in 1940s is purely concidental. Whoever reinvented it (and those were SPO protesters in 1990s) probably didn't know about it. In any case, your move was not justified. Today, no one uses it except for Serbs (ljakse or not), and I don't get why you're even trying to prove otherwise. Duly reverted. No such user (talk) 13:09, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
While not relevant to the article, your claim 'no one uses it except for Serbs (ljakse or not)' doesn't appear to hold water. The Serbian salute may not be related, but the Nazi salute is still used by neo-Nazis particularly in Germany to get around the ban on the Hitler salute [18] de:Hitlergruß#Kühnengruß Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#Serbian football team salute. Nil Einne (talk) 06:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
The three-finger salute today though is most widely connected to Serbs and Serbia, no matter what other groups may do. And the nazi three-finger gesture was not a salute, but in fact a formal central-european gesture while taking an oath - much older than nazi germany, and also connected to christianity Schwurhand. The Serbian salute is undeniably depicted in the 1895 Paja Jovanovic painting "Takovski Ustanak", open three fingers and all. 23.242.82.2 (talk) 10:50, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

WW2 chetniks have not used tri prsta salute. this is nonsense

I deleted part of the article where was said that WW2 chetniks used tri prsta salute... This is nonsense ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Damjanoviczarko (talk • contribs) 17:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Laz17 vandal

Laz17 vandalized the page. Article must be reverted to pre-vandalized condition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Damjanoviczarko (talk • contribs) 13:35, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

What is wrong with my edits? You have a problem if there are TWO types of Serbian salutes, open fingers and closed fingers?! What is wrong with what I did? You yell, but indicate nothing as to what was wrong. http://www.facebook.com/s.php?q=istina+o+tri+prsta&init=q&sid=7f0e52c63f67f891fc2aa9716beb16a1#/group.php?sid=7f0e52c63f67f891fc2aa9716beb16a1&gid=36984273656&ref=search

http://www.facebook.com/s.php?q=%D0%98%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0&init=q&sid=975f426f88b47f91bcb5a2934b68bf5e#/group.php?sid=975f426f88b47f91bcb5a2934b68bf5e&gid=9127277554&ref=search 18000 people in the second group. And you tell me that it is a lie that the three closed fingers are not serbian! (LAz17 (talk) 15:58, 5 June 2009 (UTC)).

Give as a source for closed 3-finger salute which has an origin in WW2. We only saw an image where a group of armed men, allegedly Chetniks, raise it in the air. All the sources so far show that the salute origins lie in 1990s. It is possible that some people used it before, because it's the way that Orthodox people make sign of the cross. The Facebook article you quote, even if not a reliable source, says the same thing as I do: it was invented by Drašković, and popularized in Krajinas in 1990s before it became the universal symbol of Serbdom. There are no earlier attestations: the photos from WWII and Jovanović's painting seem to be dug out just to prove that the salute is earlier than it is. No such user (talk) 13:31, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Removed: Takovo uprising

Removed:

"Salute is first represented on Paja Jovanović's painting Takovo Uprising. The picture represents folk Prince Miloš Obrenović, founder of the House of Obrenović pledging the oath in front of the people and saying the legendary words: Here I am and here you are: War to the Turks!. On the painting Miloš is saluting to Serbs with three fingers. [19]. This act started the Second Serbian Uprising against Ottomans."

The reference is about three fingers, but alas it does not even mention the painting. On the File:Takovo.jpg, the Prince indeed greets the crowd with some fingers up, but it's indistinguishable how many and in which position. In any case, unless a serious source describes this painting as a source of the salute (which I doubt) will remain someone's original research. Until then, it should stay out. If anyone can reuse something from the interview, he's of course free. No such user (talk) 13:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

In this interview (in Serbian, or autotranslated), Vuk Drašković mentions that Takovo painting inspired him for this greeting.--Irić Igor -- Ирић Игор -- K♥S 22:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. Incorporated in text now. Someone has changed the picture license in the meantime, so it's acceptable. No such user (talk) 09:05, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Recent Changes

No such user, please stop your edits. I have provided pictures of chetniks with the three CLOSED finger salute, from world war two. There are more sources - just to get you two quickly, http://www.facebook.com/s.php?q=istina+o+tri+prsta&init=q&sid=7f0e52c63f67f891fc2aa9716beb16a1#/group.php?sid=7f0e52c63f67f891fc2aa9716beb16a1&gid=36984273656&ref=search http://www.facebook.com/s.php?q=%D0%98%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0&init=q&sid=975f426f88b47f91bcb5a2934b68bf5e#/group.php?sid=975f426f88b47f91bcb5a2934b68bf5e&gid=9127277554&ref=search Maybe you should see the serbian film digitalni angeo, which if I am not mistake was made by the serbian church and deals with this matter. The three finger salute existed, though it was closed fingers, not open fingers. So what problem do you have with the article? (LAz17 (talk) 13:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)).

Where does that image comes from? It's unclear that those are chetniks at all. It's unclear that they're greeting and not doing sign of the cross.
Both of your Facebook links say the same thing as I say: there's no evidence that the salute was used by Serbs before 1990s. Show us the proof rather than assertion, something stronger than one historical image, and one Facebook article, that either form was massively used by Serb forces before 1990s. No such user (talk) 14:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

http://furka.com/blog/13735/Symon1982/Rasirena_tri_prsta http://zavicaj.wordpress.com/2008/12/11/tri-prsta-antisrpstva/ - says exactly which division is in the picture that had the three closed fingers. off topic, bush with three fingers - http://www.mrdnise.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=227 http://www.pressonline.rs/page/stories/sr.html?view=story&id=43897 http://blog.b92.net/text/4709/Troprsti%20neonacisticki%20pozdrav/ (LAz17 (talk) 22:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)).

Two blogs, two facebook links, one forum. Do you have anything more substantial?
My point is that the link between the modern salute, and the WW2 "chetnik" salute, does not exist. Even if it exists, it's not established in any reliable sources. Elaborating on this link, as you did in this article, is original research, and places undue weight on that piece of history. The most we can is to mention that similar salute existed in WW2, but even for that we don't have good proofs.
Further, you apparently lifted that image from the forum. Don't do that; we have copyright to obey here. The picture you uploaded is without source. We cannot verify that it is indeed Srpski Dobrovoljački Korpus (Serbian_Volunteer_Corps_(WW2)). Even if we trust this, this book clearly says they were Dimitrije Ljotić's fascist militia, and that they fought against Chetniks. Get your facts straight.
The story you're trying to tell is full of holes, sorry. No such user (talk) 08:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
...and why do you keep on putting this merged 3-finger image on the top of the article, when it's clearly not representative of the modern and more famous usage? That image also needs source information. No such user (talk) 08:50, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
For the sake of compromise, I incorporated some of your edits, but we're still missing better sources for them. Sorry, but I had to tag your images with {{tl:source}}; as the upload page clearly says, you cannot just lift the images from someplaces of teh internets. No such user (talk) 09:06, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

File:Serbian Army withdrawal from Kosovo.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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THIS ISN'T AN EXCLUSIVELY SERBIAN SYMBOL...

I think it should be noted that a variety of Christian Orthodox peoples around the world use the three-finger salute as a religious and/or cultural symbol and that the concept of gesturing three fingers in some manner to represent the Christian Holy Trinity predates Serbia by hundreds of years at least.

One only needs to look at frescoes, murals, paintings and reliefs in some of the world's most historic Churches to see evidence of this.

In particular other Balkan Orthodox ethnic groups like Macedonians and Bulgarians, as well as Greeks, Russians and Ukrainians use this symbol in much the same way as Serbs do; i.e. an exclamation of their Orthodox faith and to a lesser degree, as a nationalistic "boast" or affirmation of their support for their country; particularly in situations were nationalistic tensions run high such as sporting events.

Serbs most probably do use the three-finger salute more than any other group and it most strongly identified with them, especially since the Yugoslav Wars, but it is found in a number of Orthodox countries other than Serbia. Whether it spread to these countries because of exposure to Serbian culture/history I'm unsure (that could be the case) but nevertheless, Serbs don't have a monopoly on the three-finger salute.

It shouldn't be called "a Serbian symbol", but rather an Orthodox Christian symbol popularized in the modern era by Serbia, but having roots in early Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Gamer112(Aus) (talk) 17:56, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Its not 100% true. Read again. It is a Serbian Symbol or its stay for Serbia. Nobody say that is an 100% Orthodox Symbol...may Serbs or loyal people to Serbia use this signe and they are not Orthodox. First, and only Serbs use this in all areas for a sign as Serbia. I never saw Bulgarina or Macedoina athletes to do that after a win. Also not politicians, celebrities or ordinary people.Nado158 (talk) 15:05, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

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Ustaše three-finger salute

Why does the article not mention that this salute has been adopted by (or from?) fascist Croatian Ustaše movement as an offiial salute? There is a bunch of historical evidence on this, including photographs, so it should be included, especially as it represents similar ultra-nationalist ideologies (albeit with different national prefix). Sideshow Bob 12:39, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Because, like, except for the superficial similarity, they are completely unrelated: The first popularized use of the three-finger salute (with fingers separated) was in 1988. No such user (talk) 12:42, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Reality check: Why would Serbs adopt an Ustaše salute...?--Zoupan 12:56, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Interesting assertion. If it is so, why does the article start with Karađorđe and supposed 19th Century usage of this so-called "Serb salute" (which is an issue on its own, since I have never in my life heard it called anything else than "tri prsta", but nevermind, it is Serbian after all)? And after all, it's with closed fingers, unlike Ustaša salute, which is absolutely the same as the one covered in this article. How can it be first used in 1988 if it has been used by Ustaše while taking oath during 1940s? There is photographic evidence for this... Ustaše and Serb nationalists (Chetniks, as well as followers of Nedić and Ljotić) have been collaborating together during WWII, can it be that there was no connection whatsoever, with the salute popularised 40 years later by followers of the same ideology (only on Serbian side though)? Sideshow Bob 13:07, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
The section in question is titled "Orthodox symbolism" and explains the background, and does not quite assert "19th Century usage". In fact, many Wikipedia articles contain a section named "background", which explains historical conditions behind the topic. It is quite possible that the salute was also used by Tibetan monks in the 18th century, and even by Aztecs before the Conquest, but since the title of the article is "Three-finger salute (Serbian)", it only covers the material directly relevant to Serbian history.
Now, if you have any reliable source that explicitly makes the connection between the WW2 Ustaše salute and the 1990s Serb salute, it might be interesting. If not, I'm not particularly interested in speculations (WP:NOTAFORUM). No such user (talk) 13:25, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
The Ustasha one was an oath-taking gesture, as seen here . It was based on the Central European Schwurhand. Serbs have used different variations of a three-fingered salute since about the First Serbian Uprising, as seen in Jovanović's Takovski ustanak . 23 editor (talk) 15:14, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Sideshow Bob tries once again to portrait Serbs badly. This time equating them with fascists. He makes no mention of the Trinity and the actual background (Oath-taking), which is clearly included in the article. Closed or separated (like there was some strict rule of how?), the three fingers is a Serbian, Orthodox symbol, which concept obviously predates World War II. Btw, Ustaše sang Nesta krsta sa tri prsta.--Zoupan 16:49, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Funny, I thought "Montenegrin nationalists" were more inclined to align with the Ustashe. 23 editor (talk) 16:54, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Interesting how Zoupan and the gang like to equate all Serbs with ultra-nationalists, as if if you are anti-fascist and anti-nationalist you have to be anti-Serb by rule. Not all Serbs share your far-right worldview, you should take note of that, and try not to pin some sort of bias towards an entire ethnic group to people you simply don't agree with, one of which I'm proud to be. I said that the very same salute used by contemporary Serb nationalists was previously used by the Croatian ultra-nationalists, with whom their ideological predecessors openly collaborated. Anyhow, I don't give a f*ck about this nationalist salute popularised by Drašković 20 years ago, no one will read it anyway, I was just pointing out your inconsistency and selective use of information in a host of articles regarding Serbs. Also, I do not know what Montenegrin nationalists have to do with this article, or Ustaše, since they have never collaborated with them (despite contacts with Italians and even Četniks during WWII), unlike their Serb counterparts who continuously collaborated with them and their German and Italian sponsors in fights against the communist Partizan movement. Sideshow Bob 12:11, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

No, the very same salute was not used by Croatian ultra-nationalists, as outlined above.
"I do not know what Montenegrin nationalists have to do with this article, or Ustaše, since they have never collaborated with them." Ha, ha, ha. You've got to be kidding. Sekula Drljević ring a bell? No, he was merely too busy claiming Gothic and Illyrian heritage. Anti-fascist? Self-hating Slav sounds more like it. 23 editor (talk) 15:20, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Sideshow Bob, who "constinuously collaborated" and who "shares ideology"? What are you talking about? What is the connection to this article? You talk how Usataše had this same salute, do you have a reliable source which talks about this and could be usefull for the article? Because I saw an video on youtube about this, kind of provocative joke nothing more, hope that is not all you have regarding this, is it? FkpCascais (talk) 22:10, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Croatian War and three fingers on the right hand cut off

During the Croatian War, there were instances of massacred Serb civilians having had their three fingers on the right hand cut off. This information is from this source. (Станко Нишић (2004). Од Југославије до Србије. Књига-комерц. p. 162. ISBN 9788677120399. одсечена три прста десне руке). I can't get to the whole source but what we have from google is that Radio London is mentioned here. Page 162, "Вршене су и масовне егзекуције, па је, на примјер, у Жарговићу пронађено девет убијених цивила старијих од 50 година, којима су претходно одсечена три прста десне руке. Радио Лондон не рече која су то три прста, али зна се".[20] "Mass executions were also carried out, so, for example, nine killed civilians over the age of 50 were found in Žargović, who had previously had three fingers of their right hand cut off. Radio London did not say which three fingers it was, but it is known..". Radio London is mentioned here and this was common information from WWII. I searched possible crimes of the Croatian Army in the village of Zagrović, but I did not find such informations. Someone should check out this book to see what it’s all about, because it’s probably not about crimes in Croatian War. Mikola22 (talk) 17:22, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67: I must ask you for advice. I started discussion about two informations from two sources. First source speaks about "crimes of the Croatian Army in the village of Zagrović" and "cutting off three fingers from nine persons". This is very important information that I have never heard of, it is not mentioned by the Serb community in Croatia, nor has it been the subject of any trial. I did not find this information in any other RS. What should I do? I put this source on Reliable sources/Noticeboard[21] Mikola22 (talk) 10:35, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Removing sourced material

Please do not remove sourced material @Mikola22:. That's not a good way to start with your editing again, I would say. cheers, Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 08:54, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't know if you saw my explanation? A Croatian Serb woman interviewed by war correspondent Misha Glenny had her three fingers shot off. What does this information have to do with Yugoslav War and the "Three fingers" article? We don’t know which three fingers she lost, when, where etc, we don’t really know anything. This information( as it is presented) should not be part of the article because it doesn’t refer to the article at all, ultimately it is and OR. Mikola22 (talk) 11:50, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
According to the source ie Misha Glenny book "The fall of Yugoslavia: the third Balkan war"[22] here it is said that some person in the fight with the Croatian Army lost three fingers. What does this information have to do with Three-finger salute and this article? Therefore, everything is clear, this is not information which belongs to the article.Mikola22 (talk) 19:44, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
I'ts not yet confirmed. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 22:24, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
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