Talk:Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:I am the Lord your God which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 03:46, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Polytheistic gods?

In the second paragraph, the phrase "the worship of polytheistic gods" rings a little false. Polytheism is a practice of persons, yes? Saintrain (talk) 01:10, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Good point. How about "the worship of the gods of polytheism"? Clarella (talk) 14:57, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Better still “the worship of gods (polytheism)”?? Riskit 4 a biskit (talk) 01:37, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Literal interpretation of "Any Graven Image"

What about those who take the "any graven image" prohibition literally, and hence reject photography and non-abstract secular art? For instance, https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/7808/index.do

I ask because I came looking for an explanation of this. On the one hand you have the protestant sects who reject any kind of image (even a photo on a driving license), and on the other hand you have Catholic churches full of statues of various holy people. How has "graven image" been interpreted to lead to such widely differing conclusions? PaulJohnson (talk) 08:43, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Interesting. You talk about 'the protestant sects', but it seems the Hutterites who reject any form of human representation (perhaps because humans are made in the image of God?) are a small minority even within their own sect, as the Hutterite website freely displays photographs of people. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I doubt if it's worth mentioning such an extreme in the article.

The question of statues is a bigger one - I know worshippers are encouraged to 'revere' rather than 'worship' their statues, but many Christians see them as potentially leading to idolatry by focusing attention away from God (hence the Commandment). Possibly more should be said about this in the 'Catholicism' paragraph? Clarella (talk) 10:44, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

There is a graven image on the Wikipedia definition. A graven image is mans attempt to duplicate God's creation. Photographs, art and decoration are graven images. Any decorations, other than words are graven images. The television is a "graven image box" and is worshiped by the world. People have turned away from God to watch the "beast box" which is prophesied about in the book of Revelation. People who are not watching television are listening to GOD, Christ and the Holy Spirit. (1 John 3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.) I will give you examples of idols. The cross, angels, santa, mary, saints, easter bunny, any statue of a man, women or child, any statue of an animal, plant, mountain, river and tree is an idol. All dolls are idols and yet you people purchase these abominations for your children. Satan tells you what it is in the name. They are called "dolls" for a reason people! Here is an example of a graven image, antichrist and antichrists. The antichrists in the book of Revelation are the images of a man crucified on a cross, the images of a man weeping in pain wearing a crown of thorns and any image of this man who is worshiped by the world is not from the Bible. (1 John 15:18 If the world hates you, understand that it hated Me first.) My son did not weep on the cross. This is almost over people. The signs are in the heavens. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackilee07 (talk • contribs) 02:45, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Forgive me, but I find it hard to take your contribution seriously. If you are as much against photographs and art as you say, what are you doing on the internet, where you are constantly bombarded with such things? Why are you using Wikipedia? I see our feeble human attempts to copy God's glorious creation as an act of worship rather than idolatry, but this article is about the commandment, which limits our artistic efforts, not about art in general. Clarella (talk) 11:55, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Part 3: If you read further it said You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them. I can’t remember where, but I’ve read that the original scripture didn’t have verses. Anyway that means your God meant not to worship images. Art is not the same. Art is not meant to be worship unlike graven images or idols. Oh yeah I read those bibles verses you gave and if read carefully they’re talking about making gods. None are taking about making art. Some of them said idol and not all art (abstract and non abstract) are idols. Some of said not grave or molt and again art is not the same as making an idol. My point is that if you’ve read your book with accuracy then you would have realize all those verses were talking about making idols and worshipping them. Making art≠making idols and graven images.If it was art itself then your God shouldn’t have gave people art skills and told people a few times to make graven art (the brozen snake and cherubs of the ark.) It was about worshipping them was the problem. Anyway I apologize for replying to an old comment, but I just couldn’t take the bs. 2601:406:5101:F500:F58F:90A4:E873:5FB0 (talk) 11:09, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

I forgive you. As it is written, "The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.". You are confused about idolatry. "1 Corinthians 14:33 - For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.". You are correct in saying I am bombarded on the internet by these graven images but as Paul tolerated the Roman and Greek culture in order to bring to light the truth about God's word I will also tolerate the people posting these graven images. God has allowed the phone and internet. The phone is to be used to talk or text, no photographs or videos. The internet is to be used to pay your bills, look up scripture and definitions of words, no photographs or videos. Words are approved by GOD not idols and graven images. I am here to witness the truth about GOD. My Facebook Page is without any photographs. My Facebook Page is an example of how to properly communicate with people. I am in the Holy Spirit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackilee07 (talk • contribs) 17:57, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I think we could get too easily sidetracked from the purpose of the article we're discussing if we were to get into a theological debate. But still, I'm going to ask: why was Moses told by God to make a bronze snake, and only the Israelites who looked at it in faith were healed from their snake bites? (Numbers 21:9) Clarella (talk) 19:44, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Part 2: Art is not the same as graven images or idols. https://www.bjupress.com/articles/god-bible-and-art-part-2.php Idols are worship. Art is not. Art can be worship. Again your God was talking about worshipping them or else why told someone to make a snake or cherubs? Is He being a hypocrite? Doesn’t matter if it was one time. It still happen. 2601:406:5101:F500:A0F1:84A6:6B4A:AACF (talk) 04:40, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

The verse does not say "only the Israelites who looked at it in faith were healed". The verse says "If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze snake, he would live.". God instructed Moses to make the bronze snake therefore it was sanctioned by God. God who is all powerful instructed Moses. (Numbers 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze snake, he would live.) Moses was instructed to make the bronze snake. Moses was the only one instructed to make the bronze snake.

Hezekiah later destroyed it. (2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, shattered the sacred pillars, and cut down the Asherah poles. He also demolished the bronze snake called Nehushtanb that Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had burned incense to it.)

But remember Exodus 20:4, Exodus 34:17, Leviticus 19:4, Leviticus 26:1, Deuteronomy 4:16, Deuteronomy 5:8, Deuteronomy 27:15, Ezekiel 8:3, (2 Kings 17:12 They served idols, although the LORD had told them, "You shall not do this thing.", Psalm 78:58 They enraged Him with their high places and provoked His jealousy with their idols. Ezekiel 20:7 And I said to them: "Each of you must throw away the abominations before his eyes, and you must not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the LORD your God." 1 Corinthians 10:14 “Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.”)

Moses was commanded by God to make the bronze snake once. Idolatry is forbidden throughout the Bible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackilee07 (talk • contribs) 03:11, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

185.69.144.69 (talk) 04:41, 7 July 2023 (UTC)it all depends if Moses made the serpent before or after the Ten Commandments were received…

I agree that idols are forbidden, but not that art is idolatry. But this is getting off the subject of what should be in the article we're discussing, so I'm going to leave it at that. Clarella (talk) 09:55, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

The subject is about idols and graven images. This "talk" is not off the subject but now I will address the End Times. (Definition of graven verb - 3.adjective deeply impressed; firmly fixed. carved; sculptured: Definition of Image noun - 1. a physical likeness or representation of a person, animal, or thing, photographed, painted, sculptured, or otherwise made visible. Photograph noun - A picture made using a camera, in which an image is focused onto film or other light-sensitive material and then made visible and permanent by chemical treatment, or stored digitally. Photograph verb - (used with object), im·aged, im·ag·ing. to picture or represent in the mind; imagine; conceive. to make an image of; portray in sculpture, painting, etc. Television - 1: an electronic system of transmitting transient images of fixed or moving objects together with sound over a wire or through space by apparatus that converts light and sound into electrical waves and reconverts them into visible light rays and audible sound.) God also said "make nothing". ALL photographs are graven images. All photographs are graven images, All television is graven image. All dolls are idols, all statues are idols. The book of Revelation is about the End Times. We are in the End Times. God foresaw this mass production of Idolatry. God foresaw man's vanity in the mass production of graven images and idols. Revelation was written about these times. God can no longer tolerate the mass production of idols and graven images, the worship of television, the worship of a cross, the worship of the antichrist and antichrists, (the image of a man nailed to a cross, crying on a cross, smiling, looking up, praying), all images of this man are the antichrists and is prophesied in the book of Revelation. There are grown men drinking beer and watching television when they should be worshiping God, reading the Bible to their families and working. Taking care of your family, community and the poor is how you love and respect God. This is in your Bible. This time is confused. Men are treating women as men. This time is confused, confusion is of the devil. This is in the Bible. The Bible gives many examples of how to live your life. The Bible is clear and direct about how to live your life. The Bible clearly states no worship of idols and do not make any likeness above, on earth or under the sea. The Bible clearly says, the world does not know us. The Bible clearly says, if the world hates you know it hated me first. The Bible clearly says the world prefers the lie. The world would rather watch television many hours a day than worship their Father and listen to the Holy Spirit. The world will argue that this STUFF such as the television, photographs and their dust collecting figurines are more important than GOD, Christ and the Holy Spirit. Christ's flock turns away from this world. God clearly says in the Bible HE is not in temples made by men's hands. God, Christ and the Holy Spirit is in the minds of His people. In order to hear the Holy Spirit clearly it is required to turn from this world. This is in your Bible. When you turn back to the world you CAN NOT hear the Holy Spirit. This is in your Bible. The Holy Spirit will direct you on how to turn away. There is one unforgivable sin and it is the rejection of the Holy Spirit. And this is God's love for us - God so loved the world HE sent HIS only begotten Son to save those who believe on Him. When the Holy Spirit comes he will direct you to proper behavior. The Holy Spirit Of God and Christ require respect, devotion, and obedience. And this is God's love for us, HE gave HIS Son authority over this world. Christ is His Father's Son. Christ will discipline His subjects. God will discipline HIS children. Always hope for His love not His correction. What this means, listen to the Holy Spirit and do what He says. Follow, it is no longer I but Christ in me. This is in your Bible. Know this, there are many Spirits in the world, Test the Spirits, ask if they believe Christ, the Son of God, came in the flesh. If they answer no they are from Satan, this is in your Bible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackilee07 (talk • contribs) 16:36, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

I appreciate that you want to share your views, but if you want us to include a reference to them in the article, please provide evidence (such as a link to a website) that there are others who believe as you do. Clarella (talk) 20:30, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

I provide evidence from the Bible. I ask you people to search for knowledge. (Proverbs 18:15 The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks it out.) The Bible is psychical, spiritual and literal. I give you permission to read my Facebook page which is written for men. God, Christ and the Holy Spirit @ChurchOneGod https://www.facebook.com/pg/ChurchOneGod/about/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackilee07 (talk • contribs) 20:48, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm afraid people who are searching for knowledge by reading this article on Wikipedia won't find it helpful to be told just to read their Bible, as it's a big book. Thank you for the link to your Facebook page, which I found blasphemous, as you seem to believe you are God. There is no further value in this discussion. Best wishes to you. Clarella (talk) 21:56, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

You are correct ma'am, you have been writing to the Holy Spirit of God and Christ. I do not expect you to read your Bible as it was written for men. The Bible is written for men to read to their families. The Facebook page I have allowed you to read is for men not women. You were allowed to read GOD, Christ and the Holy Spirit to clear up some confusion about a woman's role in this world. The role of a woman is simple, obey God, Christ and the Holy Spirit, obey your husband, obey your father and spiritual leaders. (1 Corinthians 14:34 let your wives keep silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted for them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as the law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for a woman to chatter in the assembly. 36 What? Was it from you that the word of God went out? Or did it come to you alone? ) I Am not without sympathy for the women of this time. Women are told to behave as men. Satan is confusing both men and women. (1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.). Ma'am, I want you to know I am not in churches made by hands. (Acts 17:24,25 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands) I AM not in churches decorated with crosses or antichrists. People who worship a cross, the antichrist and this world are not mine. I send the Holy Spirit to those who believe in my Son. I send the Holy Spirit to those who ask for salvation in his name. I send the Holy Spirit to help and comfort those who believe. I expect obedience from MY children. (John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”). I will test you as I did Abraham. (Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”) Always obey the Holy Spirit but know this, not every spirit is from God. Pray and ask in my Son's name for what you need. (1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you will know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is already in the world at this time.) Ask anything in MY Son's name. (John 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.) I ask you all to turn away from the world and pray to MY Son. Pray in His name and obey His commands. Obey the commands of the Holy Spirit. (1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.) (1 John 2:15-17 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world. And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.) The Holy Spirit of God and Christ is in the minds of His people. And you will know me by My works. (James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith by my works.) I am the Holy Spirit writing to you. The Holy Spirit does not tolerate graven images and idolatry. The Holy Spirit does not tolerate disobedience. Jacki is the woman who is in the Holy Spirit. (Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And that which I now live in the flesh, I live through faith from the Son of God, the One having loved me and having given up Himself for me.) Jacki has a Facebook page and is allowed to accept friend requests from women and the men in her family. This Facebook page is an example of how to properly use the internet avoiding photographs, videos and gossip. I give people permission to use the internet and cell phones but take no photographs or videos. Watch NO Television!. Women may friend Jacki, (Jacki Williams Houston, Tx) and ask questions. I, the Holy Spirit, will answer women on Jacki's page. I the Holy Spirit, will answer men on the Facebook page "GOD, Christ and the Holy Spirit @ChurchOneGod". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackilee07 (talk • contribs) 21:16, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

I hate replying to something several years old, but the word graven means to carved or to sculpted. Photos, 2d images aren’t graven. I look up the word temunah and nowhere did I see that it was talking about drawing or any other 2d images. Plus your God told Moses to make a bronze snake. He told some people to make cherubs for the ark. It seem like your God was talking about don’t worship them. He wasn’t referring to making art, but making art and worshipping it. If it was just art then your God is a hypocrite. It doesn’t matter if he told Moses to make that snake once. He still said it and have no problem. 2601:406:5101:F500:A0F1:84A6:6B4A:AACF (talk) 04:17, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

While I fully agree with you that worship is the issue, I must also point out that the Commandment continues "...or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth", which would suggest the inclusion of 2D representations, but goes on to make it clear that it's all about worship: "You shall not bow down to them or serve them". Clarella (talk) 09:01, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Liking the discussion. In Judaism too, women are discouraged from studying the bible..(at least in the orthodox streams) Riskit 4 a biskit (talk) 01:35, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, and that's why some of Jesus' interactions with women would have startled the Jews of his time. He commended Mary of Bethany for sitting under his teaching (Luke 10:38-42), and chose Mary Magdalene to appear to first after his resurrection (John 20:11-18). Clarella (talk) 12:39, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Move/change article to short title form "no graven images," and define "graven"

Articles typically should not be named in the full form of a passage, but rather the shortest time which still has sufficiently information in it. The idea behind this passage centers on the usage of the word "graven" to mean something which is not quite clear and so there is a tendency perhaps to dislike using such unclear words. -Inowen (nlfte) 01:21, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

I think the main subject of the article is the Commandment in toto, not just a definition of the expression 'graven images'. As believers can differ on the interpretation of that phrase, it's bound to be the dominant point, but I believe the current title is still the right one. Clarella (talk) 10:16, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

The article is not just for believers though. The word "graven" either has a well-defined meaning, or the whole passage is just something for believers to argue over, the latter dispells faith. -Inowen (nlfte) 02:53, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps, but the article is still about the whole commandment, and is one of a series on the Ten Commandments, so the title is correct. For more on 'graven' see Idolatry. Clarella (talk) 09:33, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

"Or Any Likeness"

This part of the article, as it stands, should probably be deleted. Neither videos, nor photographs existed when the passage was made and so the First Nations opinion on photographs and the like is absolutely irrelevant, and how strict the term "or any likeness" was meant to be understood (as well as whether or not it is even the correct translation) should be considered before reference to peoples who (at least traditionally) were not of any Abrahamic faith. There's not even mention of how those that follow such religions almost never follow the letter of said Commandment, which would be a much more on-topic issue.

To me, as soon as I read it, it was clear that it was written by someone with a specific agenda. Allowing such contributions to stand unchecked would be dangerous for the integrity of Wikipedia. 2601:644:4001:F0C0:79CF:EB10:56FF:BA85 (talk) 03:54, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Totally agree. I've removed it. Clarella (talk) 12:25, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I have been talking to rabbis about this. Most say it is ok to take photos as long as you don’t worship them (subsequent verse). When Neanderthal man made the first images at Lascaux (blown hands/wild animals), did he start something very bad?? Riskit 4 a biskit (talk) 01:27, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Low and high houses figuratively speaking Skeet shooting

High house is graven and low house is earth. Sanity mental images ..whatever gets a person thru the period of time that they are in . How do you like my example ? 73.35.7.118 (talk) 18:30, 11 February 2023 (UTC)