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Talk:Thomas Waymark

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I've been working through this one as it unexpectedly popped up on my watchlist with a very odd edit. As far as I can see right now we need more to be able to suggest he was an all-rounder or his handedness don't we? Let alone the first great all-rounder? I've not got access to all the books, and am going on trust where I don't, but is there anything that can be cited to show things like handedness? I'm entirely happy that the article exists, and will see what else I can find, but we'll need a bit more to show that won't we? Blue Square Thing (talk) 10:09, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the information, probably including Waymark's batting and bowling styles, came from an unpublished MSS by Goulstone in the 2000s. Verification was much looser then and we tended to add stuff on good faith if it seemed okay. Anything found by Goulstone was given the benefit of the doubt but you can't cite it now if still unpublished. Much of the background info can probably be sourced to Rob Light. John Major and PWT are usually okay for that level of detail. Ashley-Cooper has a contemporary piece about Colchin which says he and the two Bennetts were the best batsmen around in the 1740s, although other sources suggest Newland was. Given WP:V, might be best to say we don't know what Waymark's styles were. Hope the Light citation is okay now: you need to use the editor and work variables in addition to the usual. 92.31.4.56 (talk) 12:00, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Do you know where the Ashley-Cooper piece is? I don't think anyone would have a problem with Goulstone if you can find any sort of citation for it - in his case I'm not sure it matters if it were formally published; it could always be caveated. I always forget about the helper thing with cites. Blue Square Thing (talk) 15:25, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I should have said. It's in the potted bios on [1], page 84 of the 26 April 1900 issue. It's from a 1746 magazine of sorts called The Connoisseur. ASW's entry is under Robin, not Colchin or Long Robin as you might expect. Let me know if I can be of more help but I won't be available again till much later this evening. Thanks. 92.31.4.56 (talk) 16:22, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, OK - not sure that helps us too much with Waymark mind. There might be a quote from Major - page 47. If you have a copy. I can source it from somewhere else as well, but it'd be helpful to have that. No rush though. Blue Square Thing (talk) 16:12, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Major has two entries about Waymark, on pages 47 and 49. The first concerns the match at Penshurst Park on 28 August 1729. The primary sources, first found by Waghorn (page 7 in Dawn of Cricket) include: "The latter (Gage's XI) got as many within three in one Hand, as the former did in two, so the Kentish men (Stead's XI) flung it up. A Groom of the Duke of Richmond signalis'd himself by such extraordinary Agility and Dexterity, to the Surprise of the Spectators, which were some thousands 'tis reckon'd, that he turn'd the Scale of Victory, which for some years past has been on the Kentish side". This extract is quoted verbatim (moreorless) by each of Waghorn, McCann (page 9) and Maun (page 39). None of them suggest that the groom was Waymark, but Major agrees with other writers that he was: "The star of the game was a groom of the Duke of Richmond, Thomas Waymark, who 'turned the scale of victory by his agility and dexterity'".

The second entry on page 49 is about the match between Richmond's XI and Gage's XI on the Dripping Pan at Lewes on 5 August 1730. Major says it was "postponed because the Duke's most accomplished player, his groom Thomas Waymark, fell ill". Major's opinion is that "Richmond was being cautious as the wager was high". The contemporary sources, including the London Evening Post, are quoted by Waghorn (Cricket Scores, pages 1–2), McCann (page 11) and Maun (page 43). These simply say the match was "put off on account of Waymark, the Duke's man, being ill". It isn't known if it was postponed or cancelled.

I don't know if you have Start of Play by David Underdown, but he mentions Waymark several times. He says Waymark played for Richmond against Brodrick in the Articles of Agreement matches of 1727 but other sources don't mention that. Underdown also has some details of Waymark's employment at Goodwood from the estate accounts.

I hope this is useful but let me know if you need more. 92.31.4.56 (talk) 08:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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