Talk:The Two Pigeons

Restored information not now appropriate

I created the page 'The two pigeons (original French title: Les deux pigeons is a ballet with music by André Messager first performed at Paris Opéra on 18 October 1...') last December. It was clear the article was about the ballet. Without discussion the article has been changed considerably in such a way that material included initially has been deleted, as in some way 'not appropriate', though I am not clear why.

My suggestion is either that a separate article about the ballet be created, or a separate one about the fable. I could easily add more about the ballet. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 14:34, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking along much the same lines, so I'm really glad you've brought the matter up. I wouldn't want to lose all the information about the ballet from what will now become the fable article since I think an account of subsequent artistic adaptations of a fable is enriching (as you may have noticed!) What I can do is slim down the material on the ballet once you've finished. While I was thinking about suggesting this possibility, I looked at what more there is to say about "Les Deux Pigeons" simply as ballet and was impressed by the rich possibilities, some of which I suggest below.

I agree that more can be said about the ballet and the early performers (some of the dancers in France especially were interesting individuals in their own right). I wonder actually why you didn't do more at the time you wrote your original article? The outline of the story-lines is largely my work - to which you're welcome. I'd also recommend that you give consideration to the way the music was (mis)applied in Ashton's version. There seems to be an opinion in what I read that Ashton's is the better work and it's not something I'd altogether agree with. The pizzicato dance in the Mérante version signals Gourouli's entry into the gypsy encampment in the 2nd act and is also a witty reference to Délibes' similar piece in the slightly earlier "Sylvia" (also with choreography by Mérante). All of that is lost in Ashton's old-fashioned and precious choreography for yet another boring, boring, boring turn by Djali in his second act.

I'd also advise a trawl through what's available on YouTube. And, of course, availing yourself of some of the superb artistic material relevant to the ballet on Wikimedia. I'd fallen in love with the French print of the ballerina that I use and regretted not having the space to use one of the posters at least. Note their use of pigeons, by the way, that probably gave Ashton the hint for his use of live pigeons and the choreography of his pigeon dance.

While you're at it, two of the ballerinas (Mauri, Sanlaville) deserve short articles. There are European language Wikipedia entries which you can use, but there's also a lot about them elsewhere, since both served as models for various French painters and Marie Sanlaville was the subject of a sonnet sequence by Dégas. Finally, PLEASE research your article(s) more thoroughly. It's plain lazy not to have looked for Marie Sanlaville's Christian name instead of simply lifting the Mlle from some web source. I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but it seems to me that the point of Wikipedia is to interest readers and add to the store of knowledge, not simply to regurgitate stuff found in books and leave cardinal questions unanswered.

Good luck!Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 21:20, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Have now started a new article for the ballet. Will allow others to adjust this article as necessary. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 00:36, 25 December 2010 (UTC)