Talk:The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (novel)/Archive 3

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Closed Space and Data Entities

It seems to me like these need at least a mention in the article, should they not? Mekryd 21:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The current order of the sections may misleads users. The closed space is the problem of of The Organization side and is not overriding problem of the whole story. Likewise the future people has time paradox problem and Data Entity has subspecies and internal disunity problems. So I think it should be; for example,

3 SOS Brigade
4 Affiliations
 4.1 The Integrated Data Entity
  (4.1.1 TFEI terminal)
 4.2 The Future Humans
  (4.2.1 TPPD)
  (4.2.2 Time Plane Theory)
 4.3 The Organization
   4.3.1 Sealed Reality

08:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

But the SOS Brigade section would still have to go under all of these or else rewrite the first sentence of that section to make it fit. As for the formatting, it looks pretty good, except what are the TFEI terminal and the TPPD or have I just not been paying attention with the series? I get the Time Plane Theory, but would we really have to include it into the article?--Juhachi 13:05, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Story

You know, we've got this large article about an anime series with detailed characters lists and fictional-world physics, but yet... we don't have story or background on it at all. Methinks we should add a story section. If the article gets too big, I also think that the characters section should be split into its own article. It's gotten pretty bulky. Mekryd 04:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

That's something I've noticed for a long time now but just have never chosen to add them in. Funny how I was just thinking about it again today. I think it would be a great idea to add a Plot section.

As for the bulk of the article, it's not really that bulky.--Juhachi 04:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

While we're on the note of expanding, do you think there is enough information to expand the 'Organization' area into a section devoted to the groups that are observing Haruhi? There isn't much to go for the time travellers, but there's passable amounts of information about the Data Entity to make a section as good as the Organization's section. Mekryd 05:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Name Order

I thin kthat for the series, direct translations for names, and such, we should leave in eastern order, but for the translations for the episode titles, should we change it to western order? After all, we do have Haruhi's name in GN/SN order (I think that's how you abbreviate it. >_>;). Mekryd 15:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Since the Japanese themselves [1] write the names in western order I don't see why we shouldn't, especially since it is policy to do so. Shiroi Hane 12:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Episode screenshots?

Noticed someone recently added some screenshots from each episode as an addition to the Episodes section. Even though I do find it quite nice. 2 things,
1. There are a lot of images in this articel already and more to come, even if it's not a lot, but by each image added loadingspeed of this article will suffer.
2. Screenshot from episode 10 I'd call a spoiler. Please change to another image or move the "Spoilers end here." futher down. Koopo 17:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

1. I don't find it a problem. 2. I invite you to look at Image:涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱IV.png again. Now, forget everything you learned in the episode. What is happening in that picture? The shards are not directly shown either coming from or towards her. In fact, you can't even tell what the shards are. Looking at that image with no knowledge only spoils this for you: purple-haired chick (most people will only vaguely remember who she is) is in episode 10 and something happens with her. The screenshot ONLY makes sense if you've seen the episode. Besides, if you're afraid of spoilers you really shouldn't be in a section with episode summaries anyways.--SeizureDog 06:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I find his concerns with #1 valid. Please mind the people with 56k. _dk 07:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

While I do think reasonable considerations should be made when appropriate, technical limitations shouldn't be a reason alone for the inclusion or exclusion of article material. -- Ned Scott 07:43, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Do we have anyone here with dial-up to test on? Also, I used to have dial up, and this page is looking nothing like anything I wouldn't have been used to back then. And let's be honest with ourselves, anyone who's been watching Melancholy OBVIOUSLY has broadband as dial-up can't handle fansubs. --SeizureDog 07:59, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

New character images

Just wanted to point out, nice new character images, but instead of uploading a file with a new filename it's better to just upload these new images as a new version for the existing file name. Just creating a new file name creates orphaned images. Also, just replacing the file means you don't have to update any articles to include the new version, so it's easier too. -- Ned Scott 23:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I had replaced them at first, but Bya had reverted them back to the images I replaced, so I made their own images. ^^; Mekryd 23:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Why Kyon, Yuki and Mikuru are still not smiling? That is bad. You must make them all smile. And do not tell me that two eyes and a mouth in your picture is Kyon. I can not believe it!

At the next time when you would post some new images, please, do not forget about colors, school uniform, and fact that characters must be fully in the picture, not only head, mouth or other part of the body.

By the way, we must replace "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya III" episode's preview image, because it's duplicating Yuki Nagato's picture.

Bye. Bya.

ok, what?? Although I do agree with the logic, and that seeing more of their bodies is better (and clearer). Bya's pictures seem to be the better ones. (are you joking about the smiles, though? because, who cares about smiles..)

And for the list of eps images, doesn't matter if it's a duplicate, but most should be replaced anyways, to be more unique and identifiable to that episode. I think they're too high res, as well. (low, high res for TV and low, high res for computers are seen differently) -- Ned Scott 08:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

As I pointed out on Ned's talk page: "According to my computer, the images only come out to be 72 dpi. Anything under 100 dpi is considered to be low res enough for fair use on Wikipedia. Basically, if it's not good enough to use as a background image it's fine.--SeizureDog 07:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)"

Please avoide copyright paranoia. Besides, the fansub itself isn't considered high quality in the first place.--SeizureDog 09:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Additional note: if it was actually a high resolution image you would see "Download high resolution version" underneath the image. Example: Image:Linux-SuSE-KDE.png. --SeizureDog 10:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

This is incorrect. We are speaking in terms of TV broadcast quality, not computer monitor quality. The images you've uploaded are more like Standard-definition resolution (See also Display resolution#Common Display Resolution). While not the same as HDTV, this is not considered "low quality", but rather, it is normal quality. Also, DPI is not the same as screen resolution.

But, like I said on your talk page, it's not that it bothers me, rather, it's just a good idea to use something that is lower in res than it's original version (although I would not be surprised at a high def broadcast of the show existing). It makes for a stronger fair use argument. -- Ned Scott 07:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

In any case, I don't see how it really matters, as the images really can't be used for any illicit purpose. Someone can go ahead, convert them to jpegs and reupload them if they really want to, but unless there are people that actually care and start complaining I don't think it's worth the hassle. --SeizureDog 08:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Bya: We want to have the characters as they normally are, not necessarily smiling! Kyon is not normally smiling. Yuki does not normally smile. Kyon is normally exasperated, Yuki is normally reading a book, with an expressionless face. What's important is the character, not what they're wearing. We all know they wear the same school uniform, why display it all? So long as we get a good close-up of the head, then it's okay, ne?

Ned: Wait, what? First you say that the new pictures were nice, then you say that Bya's were the better pictures? O_o Oh yeah, don't mind weird logic from Bya. Take a look at the hairstyle topic.Mekryd 14:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Mekryd, Mekryd, Mekryd. Can you sense surcasm sometimes? You wanted smiles, and here it is - 70% of the characters currently are smiling. That is not normal.

About my weird logic, the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is not something like William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, that is just an anime. So we love it because it's atmosphere. One of the more important things there is an animation, here is no way for bad looking images. And my thoughts are about making characters' pictures look better, make some connections between them like school uniform too.

But you should start another article where you can write about how deep you can see in the Kyon's nature and place images displaying his mind's live activity.

Bye. Bya.

Parhaps it would be easier to sense it if you could spell it right? I did not want smiles, I wanted what the characters normally look like. Itsuki rarely ever looks serious, even if the world is, in his view, about to end. Kyon scowls/looks exasperated a lot. It'd be odd if we described Itsuki as always smiling, while still giving a picture of him looking dead serious (which we did!).And may I point out that your idea of 'bad looking images' also included the most sensible suggestion of simply rearranging an image to look in order?

Perhaps you could start another article where you can quibble over your own superficial and counter-productive edits.Mekryd 20:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

TOC to the left?

I know I've tried this once before, but I thought I'd bring it up again since this one and the Fate/stay night article were the only ones to change it back to the way it was. I propose moving the Table of Contents to the left of the screen, much like in the Higurashi no Naku Koro ni and Angel (Neon Genesis Evangelion) articles, because the TOC is getting quite long and it's combursome to scroll past it everytime.

This can be done by adding the

{{TOCleft}}

tag at the beginning of the introduction of the article.--Juhachi 01:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

We should do it if we can get it so that it doesn't leave white spaces anywhere else. White space next to the TOC is okay, but white space between the Plot and Character's article would look icky. Mekryd 02:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

From what I can tell, it wouldn't leave any large white spaces and actually fit's relatively well in the window.--Juhachi 03:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

A lot of this is dependent on the resolutions people use. I think today's standard is 1024x768, but some could be using larger while others still in 800x600. I've shifted the TOC down past the introductory paragraph, so said paragraph doesn't look so squished between the TOC and the infobox. The Plot section can take the squeeze, though. As far as the placement of the first Haruhi picture, it works great for 1024x768, but I don't know if it looks as aesthetic for other resolutions. But doing a < br clear all > thing leaves unwanted whitespace. ....The only remedy to this is to write more in the Plot section. =D --Crisu 00:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

It looks very squished in anything under 1024x768, partially due to the width of the TOC itself as well as the widescreen format of the anime causing the descriptive screenshot to take up more room width-wise as well. I think a better solution for this page is to revise the TOC to something shorter, also because a lot of content have been moved off the pages, and could be included in a See Also section, such as Episodes and Trivia. This would create a shorter TOC and remove the need to have it left justified which is a much less common format on wiki, and make the page more readable for other resolutions.

For example, the Character subsection might be removed or shortened, the third subsection currently only has one character. Affiliation subsections might also be good to remove, since none of them are that long. Theme songs should remain. As a side note, however, the Anime section uses past tense for dates which have not passed. --Wirbelwind 03:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Kengo Sigemura is credited as Kyon

Yes, Kengo Sigemura is credited as Kyon in episode 1, but he is a real person that involved in anime production. He is credited as Kyon probably he wants to make some sense of humor, because his work in the anime is somehow similar what Kyon is in episode 1. Leeyc0 00:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

It might have been more believable that that was Kyon's real name had he been credited among other characters, not real people.Mekryd 01:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The Kanji of Kengo Sigemura is 重村健吾, and Google test reveals that he is involved in other anime works, and takes the same role as in this anime. (The position is called "Editing (編集)".) But as an fun, in this anime this position is called "Super Editing (超編集)" in the episode 1 ending, but you will see this title is still called "Editing (編集)" in the episode 2+ opening, and Kengo Sigemura is no more credited as Kyon. Leeyc0 15:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

How minor is too minor?

I was thinking of adding another character, but didn't know if it'd be appropriate to do so. If you'd look at the Suzumiya Haruhi novels, the seem to list every character, no matter how insignificant (though most of the characters are just given one sentence, maybe two). Would the Computer Society pres be too minor to give a mention with the same size and style as the rest of the characters? Perhaps we could have a common character article, or give the novel article's character section some work. Mekryd 16:20, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

We could very well split the characters issue into two articles for the major and minor characters, and also noting if the characters appeared in the anime as well the novel, and of course citing the differences between the two, if any are present.

Right now, I'd say the Computer Soceity's president is a minor character a little more important than: Tsuruya, Taniguchi, Kunikida and Kyon's Sister, since he had a direct effect on the plot in two episodes (kind of).

Does he get a larger part in the novels, because if he does, by all means add him and note that most of the info came from the novel version and not the anime.--Juhachi 16:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, in what little of the novels is available to me, he hasn't done much at all except get blackmailed. I'll add in the character description after lunch, if not now. =3 Characters are also really consistent between the anime and novel, to my knowledge, just like the plot itself. Mekryd 16:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Also: if we were to break off the character articles, should we leave a short intro to the character or something under the character section header? Mekryd 19:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I definately agree with that. I had to split the character section off the Strawberry Panic! article because it was getting so long and I got the idea to leave short descriptions on the main article from the Fullmetal Alchemist article.--Juhachi 19:57, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

So do we go ahead? Also: Methinks it'd be best to do the short intro in paragraph form, with them all put together. If we did it character-by character, it could inflate again. Also: One character article, or two? Mekryd 20:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Well first, you have to decide if you want all the characters in one place or like in what they did on the Fullmetal Alchemist articles is they divided among major, minor, villians and military, though they have a considerable amount more information than what is presented here. So for now, I'd say to just stick with one article for now and split it later if it gets too bulky.

Also, maybe you should only leave the major characters in the article; removing everyone but the SOS Brigade members?--Juhachi 20:16, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The main characters would have to go with the minors, methinks. It wouldn't be worth it just to split the minor characters. Anyways, I'm not going to be able to see it through, for I'm now gone for two weeks, maybe with one day in there of return. Mekryd 02:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

No, I meant leave a short description in the main article for only the major characters (those in the SOS Brigade) and put the main info in it's own article.--Juhachi 03:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Punctuation inside the quotations

Before I make a massive revert, "puncuation inside the quotations"? What grammatical blasphemy is this? _dk 22:03, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay then, at WP:MS it states:

When punctuating quoted passages, include the punctuation mark inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation mark is part of the quotation ("logical" quotations). When using "scare quotes", the comma always goes outside.--Juhachi 22:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The Organization

Shouldn't we change the mention of "The Organization" to "The Agency" so the article correspond better to the a.f.k.-translation of the show? "The Agency" is a bit more spyish. Victor b04 23:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

'The Agency' seems the better in-context translation than the literal translation 'The Organization'. But it should be mentioned what the literal translation is. --Barberio 17:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Moved Series Setting to trivia section

Since it seems to be more of a trivia piece than actually information about the series itself, I have moved the Series Setting section of the article to List of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya episodes in the Trivia section.--Juhachi 18:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)