Talk:The Life and Deeds of the Immortal Leader Karađorđe/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Squeamish Ossifrage (talk · contribs) 18:36, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Very happy to see a well-developed silent film article here, especially from an area I know little about. I'm honored to take this one; full review pending. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 18:36, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Prose

Several English sources (including the two potentially useful additional sources I mention below) seem to give the translated title as The Life and Deeds of the Immortal Vožd Karađorđe (rather than Leader). I see that Sudar prefers Leader, and that there's been some page move history here on this topic. Do you feel Sudar is authoritative in this regard? In any case, perhaps a footnote?

Vožd is an archaic word meaning "leader". Since the rest of the title is in English I find that it makes more sense to use Sudar's translation. 23 editor (talk) 22:04, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The last extant copy went missing...": I might go with "known" rather than "extant" here. Strictly speaking, extant means surviving; so the copies that were rediscovered later were still technically extant at that time.

Done.

General practice has been to name the plot section "Plot" rather than "Summary". This isn't actionable, just an FYI if you care about cross-article quasi-standardization.

Done.

Any thoughts as to which actors get redlinks vs. no links? Clearly, there's a lot of work to be done in this topic area, but I'm curious as to the thought process here.

I think Botorić, Stanojević, Petrović and de Beéry merit red links because they were notable figures in their own right. The other crew members are known almost exclusively for their work on this film.

So, I note from later in the text that the adult Milorad Petrović is distinct from the adolescent actor Milorad Petrović. I might consider moving that explanation out of §Casting and cinematography and into §Cast, below the cast list, to obviate reader confusion (I know I was confused!). Also, it seems... less likely that the child actor earns a red link?

Actually... it's tempting to think that the casting paragraph from §Casting and cinematography should just be in §Cast to avoid redundancy, although I'm open to arguments to the contrary here.

Or maybe remove the cast list altogether?

Is there a source to attach to the cast list? That's generally not strictly required for modern films, but it is preferred for these early silent-era films where there aren't typically comprehensive in-film credits. If you move the prose cast discussion up, that's sourced, and mitigates the concern somewhat.

All the names are pulled from the Casting and cinematography section, where they are referenced.

The mention of films of daily life on the Belgrade streets seems like a good place to pipe a link to actuality film.

Done.

Do either the Hotel Paris or Paris Cinema have enough notability to warrant a redlink?

I don't think so (little historical significance other than this and destroyed during World War I or II, if I remember correctly). 23 editor (talk) 22:04, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

First, allow me to thank you. You have all of your ISBNs formatted as properly-hyphenated ISBN-13s. This is always a pet peeve of mine, makes me happy to see it done correctly.
For Golubović 1985, if no ISBN was assigned, an OCLC is probably preferable to an ASIN (Amazon's proprietary identifier). Here, that would be OCLC 440998824.

Done.

Kosanović 2004 appears to be unused.

Removed.

Sretenović 2017 appears to be published by Politka, but that's missing from the citation.

Fixed.

There's no requirement for source surveys to be comprehensive at GA, but this is clearly bound for FAC at some point. This looks promising as an additional resource. Perhaps also this.

Thanks, I'll definitely take a look.

Images

Check that images published outside the US have both a US public domain license tag and a license tag for the country of publication (here, Serbia; despite the intervening map changes, it is the legal successor state at issue). Serbia is a life+70 country, and Botorić died in 1916, so there should be no problems here. But the images do need a {{PD-old-70}} or something of that nature, to indicate that they are also public domain in their country of origin.

Done.

Other

With this film having been digitized and in the public domain, is there any chance that it's viewable online? I know the Internet Archive is doing a pretty good job of acquiring American public domain silent films, but I couldn't find this one there.

I think you can find it on Youtube or Daily Motion if it interests you. 23 editor (talk) 22:04, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@23 editor: There's really very little to complain about here. You may or may not opt for my idea regarding cast discussion, and most of the other issues are quickly fixable. The image licensing concern is the most technical issue; I can't promote until that's complete, although it's pretty trivial to do so here. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 21:05, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Squeamish. Sorry for the delay (busy IRL). I've addressed your comments to the best of my ability. Let me know what you think. 23 editor (talk) 22:04, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A drive-by comment: the link in the lead of the article to Karađorđe, but with the link text "eponymous rebel leader", arguably fails WP:SUBMARINE and probably also User:EEng#Dopey words that should never appear in articles. Can we not do that, please? —David Eppstein (talk) 00:31, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed this, David. Squeamish, is this one good to go now? 23 editor (talk) 17:05, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tend to concur; "eponymous" is fairly common in writing about music, specifically in constructions of the sort "The band released their eponymous first album in 2015", but this is kind of a music-journalism affectation, and it's not that common elsewhere. WP is written for kids and non-native English speakers, too, not just those with university degrees, so we need not put terms like "eponymous" in there if we can help it. One solution is not write something with a structure like "The Life and Deeds of the Immortal Leader Karađorđe, AKA just Karađorđe is a [blah blah], about Karađorđe, who [yak yak]." It's a bit brow-beating. Use separate sentences. Our lead para. has two sentences, the first bordering on a run-on, and which contains the name three times. I would redo it thus: The Life and Deeds of the Immortal Leader Karađorđe (Serbian: Život i dela besmrtnog vožda Karađorđa, Serbian Cyrillic: Живот и дела бесмртног вожда Карађорђа), or simply Karađorđe, is a 1911 silent film directed by Ilija Stanojević and starring Milorad Petrović. It was the first feature film released in Serbia and the Balkans. Petrović portrays the rebel leader Karađorđe, who led the First Serbian Uprising of 1804–1813. Aside from moving the necessary third mention of the name a bit to be less repetitive, this also has four additional "features": more complete lang templating; removal of the redundant "(Serbian Cyrillic: Карађорђе)" after the Latin-alphabet short title (since most of our readers are not brain-damaged, heh); replacement (and shortening) of the odd "presided over" which suggests a neutral aloofness; and compression of the long-winded "It is notable for being the first feature film to be released in" to just "It was the first feature film released in", since lots of those words are not necessary, and we already know it's notable or we couldn't keep an article on it. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:40, 11 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've altered the intro to match your input, SMcCandlish. Is this one good to go now, Squeamish? 23 editor (talk) 15:04, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Status query

Unfortunately, Squeamish Ossifrage hasn't edited on Wikipedia for over two months. Pinging David Eppstein and  SMcCandlish to see whether either of them would be willing to finish this review. If not, we'll have to see about finding someone else to take over. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:07, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, BlueMoonset. Perhaps we should get someone else to take over at this point? 23 editor (talk) 12:10, 26 May 2019 (UTC)cmt[reply]