Talk:The Golden-Headed Fish

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@BDD, Tavix, Piotrus, SMcCandlish, Interstellarity, and KHR FolkMyth: (I pinged some users whom I seen experience in discussions about mergre/split/redirects etc. and one of the major authors of the article) I am not sure this article is about cross-cultural phenomen or specifically about Armenia (as the lead say, and history of the article: [1]), neverthless we have also The Tale of the Fisherman and the Fish, and The Fisherman and His Wife, what should be done? Just lead bit changed without changong "view history" or separate article about Armenian stuff created or keep as is ex equo? Additionally, I believe this topics should be included in the template: { {Fairies} }, next to other creatues like Baba Yaga etc. Cheers Dawid2009 (talk) 21:50, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. Well, the text is an Armenian tale, but the narrative does exist in other regions, as shown by the variants and other national/regional indexes, such as the Bulgarian, the Persian, the Turkish, and the Georgian ones. If it were me, I would expand the lead by stating of its presence in other regions, since the folktale indexes, which have been published by folktale scholars (e.g., Marzolph, Gullakjian, Teimuraz, Eberhard/Boratav, El-Shamy, etc.) attest similar tales locally.

As for the other questions, should it be listed under the "Fairies" template? Despite finding variants of the cycle, I have not seen any scholarly/academic literature comparing it to a fairy, or explaining the transformed fish as a fairy, albeit Sven Lijeblad, correctly, analysed the tale as part of the Grateful Dead cycle - which is confirmed by the catalogues published years after Lijeblad's opus. KHR FolkMyth (talk) 22:11, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Well, The Golden-Headed Fish (should be moved to The Golden-headed Fish per MOS:HYPHEN) is basically a WP:SIA covering a wide range of tales that pertain to golden or golden-headed fish or similar magical fish, all with various plot differences. The lead needs to be totally rewritten, since this has nothing to do with Armenia in particular. The lead should summarize the article, probably by describing the general geographical scope of the tales and perhaps listing some of the general plot devices and variations, and where in broad regional terms they are found, or something like that. The other two articles are well-developed ones on specific variants (and there are probably others). I think what I would do here is add a very brief synopsis of the Pushkin version of the story (and link to it) at #Russia in the SIA article. Then add there a #Germany section and summarize and link to the Grimm story. Agree with KHR above that this isn't a "fairy" story (the subject is not a fairy), though it is a "fairytale" in the broadest sense that word is used in English. It's not in the same class of "fairy-like beings" found in that template. There does not appear to be a navbox template that is appropriate for this article. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:17, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you will allow me, in this case, it is indeed a fairy tale, as in, a Tale of Magic ("Märchen" per se), of the international Aarne-Thompson-Uther Index (types 300-749), being related to types 505-508, "The Grateful Dead". The tale from the Grimms is classified as tale type ATU 555, and so is Pushkin's. I would oppose placing them in the same basket, when folklorists and folktale scholars do correctly separate them, despite the presence of the enchanted fish as a character and a motif: in types 505-508, the fish resurfaces as the hero's companion, just as the spirit of the grateful dead man does, while in type 555 the fish only grants the woman's increasingly greedy wishes, and the tale becomes a lesson in wanting to have more that one has. KHR FolkMyth (talk) 22:37, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some quick thougths: the lead of the article here needs a plot summary. I wonder if all the variants listed here are variants of this tale and not of the others? I also wonder if goldfish shouldn't mention something about its representation in culture (right now it only has references to Chinse culture, I'll add some see alsos at least). See also Fish in culture parent toic. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 23:48, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PS. Another story featuring goldfishes in The Gold-Children. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 23:52, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In this case, the tale is a "combination" of types, that is, some complete types of the international Aarne-Thompson-Uther Index (which are abstractions, mind you) can contain elements from other tale types, thus German "The Gold-Children" begins with elements of type ATU 555, "The Fisherman and his Wife" (e.g., the wish-granting fish), and continues as ATU 303, "The Twins or Blood Brothers" (e.g., cutting the fish to feed the woman so she could bear twins/triplets, and so on and so forth). KHR FolkMyth (talk) 00:09, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they are variants of this tale, which, as I explained above, is a subset of the cycle of the Grateful dead - a topic some scholars and indexes have noted. KHR FolkMyth (talk) 00:07, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]