Talk:The Bonnie Banks o' Loch Lomond

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Untitled

Do you really think the song was written about a jacobite's comrade? I don't think this song has undertones of homosexuality--172.141.155.246 20:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you're interpreting it correctly- "But me and my true love will never meet again" doesn't necessarily refer to the jacobite's comrade; it refers to the speaker's true love. Mmoople 22:54, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

different lyrics

A Youtube film of the Corries has entirely different lyrics. Any ideas about them? (83.13.39.98 (talk) 11:53, 12 December 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Notes: This song is often played jauntily and used as a representatively Scottish tune particularly in films and computer games (Lemmings 2 for example)

It deserves better. The song is a lament for a lost love killed in battle. He will now take the "high road" (in heaven) while Moira (his love) stays on the "low road." They will never meet again in this life but they will some day meet again far above the bonnie banks of Loch lomond.

O wither away my bonnie May (which direction) Sae late an' sae far in the gloamin' (so far in the dusk) The mist gather grey o'er moorland and brae (hill) O wither sae far are ye roamin'?

Chorus:

O ye'll tak the high road an' I'll tak the low I'll be in Scotland afore ye For me and my true love will never meet again By the bonnie bonnie banks o' Loch Lomond

I trusted my ain love last night in the broom (own) (bush) My Donald wha' loves me sae dearly For the morrow he will march for Edinburgh toon (town) Tae fecht for his King and Prince Charlie (to fight)

O well may I weep for yestreen in my sleep (well) (yesterday) we stood bride and bridegroom together But his arms and his breath were as cold as the death And his heart's blood ran red in the heather

(chorus)

As dauntless in battle as tender in love He'd yield ne'er a foor toe the foeman (enemy) But never again frae the field o' the slain (from) Tae his Moira will he come by Loch Lomond

The thistle may bloom, the King hae his ain (have his own) And fond lovers may meet in the gloamin' And me and my true love will yet meet again Far above the bonnie banks of Loch Lomond

(chorus)

(Trevsy (talk) 19:35, 26 October 2008 (UTC))[reply]

I had noticed the different lyrics, too. Both versions are about the death of a soldier, though this one seems to be written from the point of view of the soldier's true love, or perhaps his father. Some of the comments on the YouTube video for the version sung by The Corries say it's the "traditional" version, but I don't know how true that is since a) it's YouTube and b) the version I've always heard sung, and the one that everyone seems to know, is the version currently in the article. Can anyone shed some light on the different versions? -Nick Klose (T/C) 21:56, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rhythm of My Heart?

I don't know if it's officially supposed to be based on this, but Rod Stewart's Rhythm of My Heart really sounds to me like it's based on this song. I'm just going by ear on this, though, so I don't really want to add that reference to the article. Jon the Geek (talk) 04:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

John Barrowman song date

I noticed that there was a "when?" listed next to John Barrowman singing, so I looked it up.

This website has a review of the concert he gave at the Stackner Cabaret in Milwaukee's Milwaukee Reperatory Theater in August of 2002, and it lists that song as one he sang. Can someone add that?

Ryo girl (talk) 11:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Turnpikes

Many high roads in the 18th Century were under Turnpike trusts in the United Kingdom --PBS (talk) 10:07, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More

At the moment there are two mentioned of "Sergeant Mor" with different spellings should it be spelt "Sergeant Mòr" or "Sergeant Môr"? --PBS (talk) 10:56, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems in most sources it is "Sergeant Mor" so why not use that spelling? --PBS (talk) 20:35, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Second interpretation

The second interpretation of the song was added in three consecutive edits on 25 December 2006 by Prukin, who made only those contributions to Wikipedia. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:46, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sergeant "Mòr"...?

I find the spelling Sergeant Mòr unlikely -- surely it would have been Sergeant Mór. The rhyme with "score" suggests this is phonetically correct, and the chronology certainly supports the use of two accents in the Gaelic of the time, hence "Mór", not "Mòr" (which is the spelling brought in by the Scottish Exam Board in the 80s on dubious justification).

My gut reaction is that Mòr is a "correction" by an overzealous Gaelic speaker (learner?) who has mistakenly taken the traditional spelling as being Irish (which also incidentally has the same form, Mór).80.192.26.229 (talk) 01:29, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, sorry: found the link and the only source mentioned in the article spells it as "Môr", so I have reinstated that spelling.80.192.26.229 (talk) 01:39, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another tale

NPR ran a story, "The Dark Tale of Bonnie Loch Lomond," on 24 July 2005. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4766584

It reveals quite a dark meaning of the tune. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.64.197.209 (talk) 04:03, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

English version

There are complaints in this page's feedback that they don't understand some Scottish words, so they couldn't make heads and tails of the lyrics. I think this suggests the page needs to include a translated version. I refuse to write it, seeing that the common Scottish slang isn't one of my awesome strengths, but it would be great if someone here could write an English translation for the main page. Cheers. 0zero9nine (talk) 03:52, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There was a bit about this song on the Loch Lomand page which included the common modern English lyrics that we are familiar with. The succinct paragraphs on that other page were a much easier read than this page, so I brought that info over, along with those English lyrics, but they are not a "translation" it does not seem from the Scottish English lyrics here. I also did a modest amount of rearranging of the info that was already here (cited, uncited, etc.) to make it flow better. 68.174.97.122 (talk) 17:30, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is ‘make heads and tails’ a Scottish expression? I’ve only heard and read it as ‘make neither head nor tail’, i.e. unable to understand. 2001:8003:303D:BC00:E00D:E02:9132:ADE (talk) 20:26, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weeping, not greeting!

Ugh. I'm sorry, but I had to make an account correct this. I realize that when a true Scot sings this song, it sounds like he's saying "Greeting", or "Gree'in", but the word is GRIEVING, or WEEPING. "The Waeful shall cease frae the'r gree'in" literally means "The woeful shall cease from their weeping". :) CrystalMystical (talk) 18:13, 16 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Greet" is commonly used in Scotland to mean "cry" or "weep"

http://www.cs.stir.ac.uk/~kjt/general/scots.html http://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/greet_v_n1

"gree" would mean "agree" or "settle", "reconcile", so it would sound like the "woeful shall cease from their agreeing" http://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/gree_v1(188.146.80.1 (talk) 21:34, 29 August 2015 (UTC))[reply]

Speculation

The statement that "The Hanoverian British victors were known to play cruel games on the captured Jacobites, and would supposedly find a pair of either brothers or friends and tell them one could live and the other would be executed, and it was up to the pair to decide" is entirely imaginary. There was neither a tradition that this occurred, nor is there any evidence that it did so.Royalcourtier (talk) 02:58, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced addition

Fellow editors, I have just reverted the addition of the following text, on the basis that it is unsourced:

My grandmother, who had a home near Carlisle, told me that the origin of the song was based on a time when the English held a number of Scottish prisoners in Carlisle Castle after the final confrontation of the Jacobite rising of 1745, and that every 10th prisoner was executed; but prior to his execution he was allowed to make contact with his loved one, who it was assumed was in Edinburgh and would hope to visit him in jail in Carlisle before his execution. Thus the song says that she will take the low road (through the Lowlands) to Carlisle and that he would take the high road to heaven. Some versions sung would reverse the routes, but there is no high road between Carlisle and Edinburgh.

Suggest that if this can be reliably sourced it would be an interesting addition to the article. Thoughts? - Ryk72 ^'c.s.n.s.' 09:45, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge with Bonny (instrumental)

Same song, different arrangement. per WP:NSONGS Richhoncho (talk) 16:15, 13 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Marie Narelle version

Of all those versions listed, why is there no mention of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__W7m9wsb7M 1906 version by Marie Narelle?RikkiAaron (talk) 18:29, 26 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Example music file

Why an American band? Is Scotland and Scottish music also "as American as apple pie"? Could the person who added it really not find a Scottish or at least British recording? 90.129.194.18 (talk) 12:28, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

US military bands are convenient for copyright reasons. As they are federal government employees on official duties, their work is public domain in the United States. UK military bands have different rules and would require licensing. Raisins7777 (talk) 00:45, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Similar tunes

"Robin is my only Jo". Arranged by Haydn, Weber, among others

"Miss Admiral Gordon's Reel"

18:33, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Loch Lomond (Runrig song) into The Bonnie Banks o' Loch Lomond

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is a consensus to merge. No evidence of notability has been provided, making the article unsuitable to stand alone, and a suitable merge destination provided. (non-admin closure) —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 21:46, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I could not find significant coverage of the Runrig song or its remix in reliable sources.

Regarding the sources cited, the Background and Recording sections are sourced to Rocking in the Norselands, which is a self-published source per its about page. The Commercial performance section is a description of what happened to the song on the charts, which are primary sources.

There is already a section on this version of the song at The Bonnie Banks o' Loch Lomond and it can be expanded with additional chart information from here. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:15, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as per earlier points raised on the previous nomination for deletion of the "Loch Lomond" article. Whilst it is largely based on "The Bonnie Banks o' Loch Lomond", it has very much developed its own reputation and standing as a separate entity. Goodreg3 (talk) 23:17, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I originally nominated the Runrig song for deletion, but then took a look at this article and saw that the content could instead be merged here, so I withdrew the AfD and started this discussion instead. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:18, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since additional sources have been added, the BBC stories do not establish notability. This is a very brief news story about one version of the song being recorded, not in-depth coverage of it. The video establishes that fans of a certain German football team enjoy the Runrig version of the song, which isn't enough to establish notability per NSONG, which generally requires reviews. Metro is generally unreliable. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:23, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As a Runrig fan... I'm shocked that this has a Wikipedia article. Honestly can be covered just fine in the main article about the song. Cover versions are almost never notable. (t · c) buidhe 03:39, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The new source is only a brief mention of the song, not SIGCOV. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:20, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scotland, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Songs, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:10, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~Oppose~~ Loch Lomond by RunRig is very much notable for its own content and for its huge impact as part of Scottish music and culture. It meets notability criteria for a standalone article. Coldupnorth (talk) 22:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, while I can see the reasons why the original deletion and subsequent merger were proposed, I do think the article has enough references to demonstrate significant coverage of the cover to keep the standalone article: BBC News, National, Scotsman, the Herald, Press and Journal, and of course the mighty international Dumbarton and Vale of Leven Reporter to name a few. Coldupnorth (talk) 22:51, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"References" is not enough to establish notability. All of those sources contain brief mentions, not significant coverage of the song. For example, the Scotsman article is a list of Runrig's top 5 Spotify songs and lists only Loch Lomond's name and a single lyric from the song. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:04, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have to disagree with you. Looking at WP:NSINGLE "Notability aside, a standalone article is appropriate only when there is enough material to warrant a reasonably detailed article; articles unlikely ever to grow beyond stubs should be merged to articles about an artist or album." This is not a stub and has enough content, verified through references and with significant coverage on the importance of the cover to merit the standalone article. Coldupnorth (talk) 23:18, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The first two words are "Notability aside". This sentence is saying even if a song is notable, an article is "appropriate only when" there's enough material. Here, all of the sources basically say "this is a popular Runrig song", which is not enough to write a "reasonably detailed article". voorts (talk/contributions) 23:20, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But there is enough material and the article is reasonably detailed... Putting it another way, the article is 14,189 bytes and nearly the same size as the one you want to merge it with. Given its size I don't think a merge is practical either. Coldupnorth (talk) 23:59, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

People can write a lot about anything, even if the sourcing is thin. For example, the background section and the first paragraph of the recording and release section are all cited to a single SPS. Having enough material for a reasonably detailed article is a necessary, but not sufficient, reason to have a standalone article. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:15, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and I forgot that the entire commercial performance section solely cites charts, so all of the material written (such as the paragraphs comparing Loch Lomond to other songs on the chart) is entirely OR. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:20, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If that is your reasoning, have you considered editing first instead of merging? Because if you have concerns about OR from other editors, you should be dealing with these first in the article. Then you can say this is what we have thats good and this is why I think it should be merged, etc. Again, I just dont think this merge is necessary or practical with the article as it currently stands. If it was a poorly referenced stub, i'd maybe see otherwise. Coldupnorth (talk) 06:29, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We don't only merge or delete stubs. That's not the standard for notability. Please tell me which sources you think provide signficiant coverage of Loch Lomond. That is the standard for notability. voorts (talk/contributions) 11:38, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please tell us how you would intend to carry out the merge, especially if you have OR concerns. Will you delete a lot of the text? I think this merge needs further thought as to what is being carried over. Would some of it need to move to the band instead? I continue to oppose this merger until it is clear what you are proposing. Coldupnorth (talk) 17:13, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's not normally how merge discussions work, but here's a version stripped of OR and material only supported by unreliable sources. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:00, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your stripped merge version seems reasonable. I still think it is notable for a standalone article but would no longer oppose the merge if others now support it. Coldupnorth (talk) 19:35, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.