Talk:Terrorism in Serbia

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POV and Incomplete

The designation of the KLA as terrorist reflects the Serbian POV. This is not reflected in the West which has viewed the group as an armed separatist group, and certainly not in the Albanian POV which views them as "freedom fighters". This page is written exclusively from the Serbian POV, flouting Wikipedia rules. Furthermore, any page on terrorism in Serbia should surely mention the Serbian Black Hand, an early terrorist movement whose assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand was pivotal, and an inspiration to other terrorist movements. --Calthinus (talk) 18:23, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Calthinus: The article was created after its content was not accepted on Terrorism in Yugoslavia. One POV is that the KLA was a terrorist organization, the other POV that they were freedom fighters. I agree with you on adding some content about the Black Hand. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:24, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Let start with the KLA/NATO. What do you think we should do to the current content that was added with a total lack of consensus. Some trimming and language refinement? Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:00, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NATO-- literally no one calls NATO terrorist. Remove.

KLA-- this is trickier. It's clearly a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:TERRORIST and possibly WP:COATRACK. I'm torn between "delete it" and "neutralize it". I'm really busy right now so "delete it" is the tempting option... The way to neutralize it would be to make a section "Discourse on the KLA" where Serbian, Western, and Albanian views of the KLA can be compared. This is a lot of work and will likley be the site of future POV wars. Hence, delete is the option of the man who prefers efficiency...--Calthinus (talk) 19:04, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Much good info can be found on the Black Hand on it's own page, as well as Gavrilo Princip. One good source that comes to mind is Misha Glenny's The Balkans where he has a whole chapter devoted to it plus discussion elsewhere, all very well sourced -- and we can dig up those sources too. --Calthinus (talk) 19:08, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Delete those KLA/NATO parts before we proceed with Black Hand and other issues. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:09, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The US State Department added and then removed the KLA from its list of terrorist organizations twice in 1998 (see [1]) This was apparently due to its use of heroin profits to finance its activities and its receiving money from Islamic extremists such as bin Laden (see [2]). In 1999, the terrorist designation was revoked (see [3]) When describing the KLA as terrorists was no longer politically expedient, the US chastised Western officials who dared to continue calling it a terrorist organization once it had been removed from the State Department's list, as was the case with special envoy Robert Gelbard and British Foreign Secretary Robin Cooke . Saying that the terrorist designation of the KLA is solely indicative of a Serbian POV is disingenuous, since it also reflects the US State Department's and British Foreign Secretary's POV in 1998. That being said, this is en.wiki and we should refrain from using such terminology in our articles, whether they be about al-Qaeda, ISIS, or the KLA. 23 editor (talk) 19:51, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

23 editor thanks -- this should be added to a section, Discourse on the KLA, where all sides of whether the KLA was a terrorist organization can be discussed. Some of the sources used by teh VJ-Yugo sock ironically show other views.--Calthinus (talk) 20:01, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo Liberation Army article has some stuff about this issue. Some of it could be copy pasted here. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:03, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

23 editor Misha Glenny also accuses the US of hypocrisy comparing policy on the KLA to that on the PKK. This can be added to. The goal here is not shifting the previously Serbian POV page to Albanian POV. It is removing the source falsified crap that was here and presenting the best attempt at a neutral POV.--Calthinus (talk) 20:09, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The IAC

In it's "About the IAC" section here [[4]], the site describes itself as "Information, activism & resistance to U.S. militarism, war & corporate greed, linking with struggles against racism & oppression within the United States". Activist source. Not RS. Removing.--Calthinus (talk) 19:11, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. That stuff was actually added without consensus after some discussion. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:13, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Another prominent source used by the page is "World Socialist Web Site". Nope. Not acceptable. --Calthinus (talk) 19:18, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OR

This source [[5]] only mentions terrorism in one sentence : "In addition, KFOR has a Pristina-based Multinational Specialized Unit, a military police force that focuses on fighting organized crime and terrorism". Usage here attributing the word "terrorist" to the KLA appears to be OR.--Calthinus (talk) 19:15, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. None of the sources of the Prominent Events section says that the KLA was a terrorist organization. They just describe some crimes by it. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:21, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not a single one of these sources is holding up. I'm honestly disappointed. Without the source falsification and OR from the VJ-Yugo sockpuppet, this page is getting reduced to a stub or even a twig.--Calthinus (talk) 19:34, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ktrimi991 one of the few sources still standing is Fulton. I can't access it. Can you? --Calthinus (talk) 19:35, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ironically it appears this source, used by the sock, also includes criticism of the terrorism label for the KLA [[6]].--Calthinus (talk) 19:36, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Calthinus: On Foulton, I am going to download him of PDF format using the link in the end of the article (Sources) section. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:40, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sources for re-expansion, this page shall rise like a phoenix

I've done a lot of work source checking. I also located at least two sources that can be used to rebuild this page with actual WP:RS instead of the source falsification and OR garbage that was here before: [[ https://books.google.com.au/books?id=rjSjAUcH0vsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=David+rapoport+terrorism&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5yveG9YDbAhWOQpQKHfk9D5YQ6AEITDAH#v=onepage&q=Black%20Hand&f=false]]

and p.252 of this one: [[7]] --Calthinus (talk) 19:48, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]