Talk:Teli

NPOV

By glorifying the Teli caste in India and claiming that it is not a caste, but a profession class is in clear violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. --Nevhood 18:54, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed the POV text. --Nevhood 18:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Edit request on 10 April 2013

delete 'though possibly of a lower or "less-pure" status' because oil has been used for domestic (eating, massaging, putting on hair, applying on body), for medicinal use and also for ceremonial purpose (lighting deepak for worshiping god, using at temple, applying on god like Hanuman etc) by every hindu caste along with brahaman so the producer of oil cannot be considered as low status, moreover in early India nothing from a lower caste been eaten by brahman and specially liquid and for using for worshiping. This proves that teli was not considered of less-pure status.

117.98.176.104 (talk) 16:51, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Not done for now: No sources have been provided that refute the source on the article. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 17:32, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Kuyabribri is not indian thats why he does not have deep knowledge of hindu jaati evolution teli is not considered as shudra in hindus even he does not have proper evidence to prove it still he does not edit this article विशाल राधेश्याम (talk) 21:16, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Modi

Please add the name of Narendra Modi (or any other living person) I have reliable source PANKAJ golu sahu (talk) 21:35, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

How to add that

Semi-protected edit request on 14 August 2014

Teli is not a caste. It is a profession. There are many mistakes in this article.

82.99.27.2 (talk) 21:53, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 03:02, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Teli varna is not belong to shudra

You may go through the jati uttapti in india books thats teli are not shudra they are traders thats why it become in vaishya varna tell me what evidence do you need because here pics are not loaded i ll send it to you by email विशाल राधेश्याम (talk) 20:20, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Teli Varna is continuous Vaishya Varna and should be updated as one. Vikku9997 (talk) 18:23, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

What type of proofs do you need

Tell me what types of prooves do you need to rectify varna status of telis विशाल राधेश्याम (talk) 20:25, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

See WP:RS. Also, note that if different reliable sources say different things then WP:NPOV probably applies, ie: we show all variants. - Sitush (talk) 20:21, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Needs expansion

I will work on itHeba Aisha (talk) 03:19, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Some information isn't correct. Dmalfoyyy (talk) 07:18, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2022

Teli belongs to vaisya community who are known as Sahukar or Bankers whereas Baniyas are known as Halwayi community in vaisya. In 20th century most baniyas started using bankers and business class surname such as Gupta, Bansal etc whereas they use surnames ending with "wal" and don't represent business community in vaisya. AyanKashyap (talk) 17:14, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done It is not clear what kind of change you want int the article. Your request should be of the format "please change X to Y". Secondly you have to provide a reliable (WP:RS) source in support of the change. In the case of castes, a scholarly WP:HISTRS source is required. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:30, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 August 2022

Teli community has 16 divisions and the upper 4-5 divisions are considered baniya and rest are considered shudra the fact stated that they worked with a beast of burden is very untrue my won ancestors 7generations back were landlords please Wikipedia don't spread fake messages and for sources please read teli ka itihas book 103.87.141.171 (talk) 04:29, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 04:33, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2022

Telis are considered as trading castes and comes in Bania(vaishya) category of hindu classification and is not a shudra .

Uses surname such as Sahu , Unai sahu etc.

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Bania_communities&oldid=1104956473

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Unai_Sahu&oldid=1015374486 Ujjawal2799 (talk) 11:29, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Telis belongs to Bania community Ujjawal2799 (talk) 11:30, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: 1. The article never claims that they are shudra, it only claims Despite of the later attempts to claim higher status Teli were initially considered as Shudra and were thought to be lower in status. According to Anand Yang, the Telis worked with beast of burden in the oil pressers and for the purpose of obtaining the desired results from the animals, they were often blinded. This made them ritually impure but later many of them as Yang notes took up the occupation of trading and branched off as Bania in order to conceal their impure origin.

2.I don't see a precedent for including surnames in caste articles 3. wikipedia is not a reliable source for citing on wikipedia Aaron Liu (talk) 15:54, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2022

Teli is not a shudra but they are part of bania communities

Source : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Bania_communities&oldid=1104956473 103.49.117.141 (talk) 14:54, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Using ip socks to open duplicate requests won’t speed things up. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:56, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE and WP:OR

Hello @Satvikgeetha: this edit appears shady, which is exacerbated by the edit summary. I assume you had constructed a house of cards there, synthesizing stuff to achieve the desired result. For the time being, I have reverted . Please feel free to provide relevant quotes from credible sources on the article talk page in order to garner consensus to reinstate. Obviously, Fischel and Hasnain are reliable, while others may not be (People of India by KS Singh does not meet RS). Thanks. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 19:05, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Courtesy ping Symmachus Auxiliarus and Ekdalian. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 19:11, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Dr.Pinsky: Thanks for your edit and pointing out that KS singh does not meet RS. As you mentioned above may i know why edits based on reliable citaions are removed ?(That i cited from Fischel and Hasnain). Regarding the trade assertion apart from the citation i quoted ,Guild of telis known as telikas were a major trade guild even from ancient times https://books.google.co.in/books?id=BtrVAAAAMAAJ&q=telika+trade&dq=telika+trade&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjA1My33rP8AhX6iGMGHcYpAsoQ6AF6BAgJEAM#telika.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=cdq1AAAAIAAJ&q=telika+trade&dq=telika+trade&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjA1My33rP8AhX6iGMGHcYpAsoQ6AF6BAgGEAM#telika

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=06WaAAAAIAAJ&q=telika+guild&dq=telika+guild&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi3vbjm4bP8AhWp1zgGHWCaDyU4ChDoAXoECAYQAw#telika%20guild

Just like the muslims teli there was considerable jewish teli existed in india most of them left india for israel .https://books.google.co.in/books?id=oo-kEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA88&dq=shaniwar+teli&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiiq4ib7bT8AhXEmFYBHWU6DvEQ6AF6BAgJEAM#v=onepage&q=Teli&f=false

Satvikgeetha (talk) 06:44, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Satvikgeetha: Please provide relevant quotations from Fishel and Hasnanin that support your assertion “Members may be Jew” and “Bene Israel are known as Jews Teli”. Furthermore, snippet views from Google Books are not acceptable sourcing. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 07:41, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

"In their new surroundings,They turned to the pursuit of oil pressing and became known later to their neighbours as "Shanivar teli" , "The sabbath observing oilmen" indicating simultaneously their occupation and their religious observance. Page no: 6 https://www.jstor.org/stable/3622356?read-now=1&seq=6#page_scan_tab_contents

in the Sanads written in Marathi in which the various Muslim native rulers in the Konkan area (such as the Peshvas, the Angrias, and the Hubshi of Janjira) granted their Kazis, their spiritual leaders, special privileges they were called "Shanwar Telis," "the Sabbath- bserving oilmen," or sometimes "Israel Teli," or "Israel Lok" (people).page no: 12 https://www.jstor.org/stable/3622356?read-now=1&seq=12#metadata_info_tab_contents

From "Bombay in Jewish History in the Light of New Documents from the Indian Archives" Walter J. Fischel

@Dr.Pinsky: Please do check the relevant info i quoted from Fischel

It doesn't have anything remotely resembling the statement you were using it to support. See WP:V and WP:OR. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 13:07, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

WP:INDENT and WP:Signatures. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 13:21, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

@Dr.Pinsky: I assume you didn't understood that i was quoting a small section from the paragraph about bene israel, So I'm going to quote the whole paragraph additionally to the info i quoted

" II. THE COMING OF THE "BENE-ISRAEL"

1. Their Tradition and History The first and earliest group of Jews who flocked to Bombay were those members of the "Native Jew Caste" known today as "Bene-Israel." They did not come from outside of India but from within India, from villages in the region of the Konkan, 20 miles South of Bombay, where they had lived for many centuries in complete isolation without any contact with the Jewish world. Their origin and history is shrouded in great obscurity and only fiction, legend and tradition tell about their past.8 Various theories about their origin have been pronounceded, some suggesting that the "Bene-Israel" were refugees from Muham- mad's persecution of the Jews in Northern Arabia in the 7th cen-tury, or an offshoot of the Jewish colonies in Yemen, or descen- dants of the Babylonian-Persian Diaspora. Their own tradition claims that their ancestors left the northern provinces of Palestine - Galilee and moved to India. On their way they were shipwrecked in the Indian Ocean and only fourteen persons, seven men and seven women, were said to have survived and were cast ashore near the village of Nowgaon in the Konkan region, about twenty miles South of Bombay.9 These surviving fourteen persons, having lost their Holy Scrip- tures, are said to have forgotten gradually much of their Hebrew language, prayers and ceremonies and were exposed to the external influences of their Hindu environment. They clung tenaciously, however, to some fundamentals of their Jewish tradition and practice and observed circumcision, dietary laws, the Sabbath and some festivals, and, above all, pronounced at every occasion the profession of faith, the unity of God with the words of "Shema' Israel."In their new surroundings,They turned to the pursuit of oil pressing and became known later to their neighbours as "Shanivar teli" , "The sabbath observing oilmen" indicating simultaneously their occupation and their[ religious observance." Page no:5- 6 https://www.jstor.org/stable/3622356?read-now=1&seq=6#page_scan_tab_contents

@Satvikgeetha: I'm not sure how it directly supports your assertion:“Members may be Jew” and “Bene Israel are considered to be a subgroup of Teli”. You'd have to specify which sentences from Fishel you're paraphrasing to get there. Otherwise, you are wasting my time. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 06:37, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@Dr.Pinsky: Doesn't this paragraph citation basically summaries that the Bene israel are called Jewish Teli or Shanivar Teli?( They Bene israel became known later to their neighbours as "Shanivar teli" , "The sabbath observing oilmen" indicating simultaneously their occupation and their[ religious observance." )

The word 'they' fishel used in the last part of the paragraph is denoting bene israel (Because obviously the paragraph quoted here from fishel is about bene israel)

Hey, can you cite reliable source(s) mentioning that the Bene-Israel community considers themselves as Teli! Otherwise, it would be considered as WP:UNDUE since they seem to be a distinct minority group. Ekdalian (talk) 17:31, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@Satvikgeetha: Quotes from Fischel,”Bene-Israel were refugees from Muhammad's persecution of the Jews in Northern Arabia in the 7th century,or an offshoot of the Jewish colonies in Yemen, or descendants of the Babylonian-Persian Diaspora. Their own tradition claims that their ancestors left the northern provinces of Palestine Galilee and moved to India. In their new surroundings, they turned to the pursuit of oil-pressing and agriculture and became known later to their neighbors as “Shaniwar Telis” or "the Sabbath-observing oilmen," indicating their occupation and their religious observance". Thus making an assumption that “Members may be Jew” and “Bene Israel are known as Jewish Teli” based on their name constitutes original research and this is not acceptable. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 18:57, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@Dr.Pinsky:,@Ekdalian: Okay i understand not getting satisfied with fischel ,Please do check the following citaions

1:"the Bene Israel were absorbed into the Teli caste and because of their refusal to work on the Sabbath were known as Shaniwar Teli or Saturday Teli- A sub-caste of the Hindu Teli caste" From page no: 204 "The Eastern Anthropologist Volumes 28-29" (Publisher:Ethnographic and Folk Culture Society Original from:the University of California)

2:Shaniwar Telis The name by which the Bene-Israeli Jewish community in India was first known. They claim to be descended from Jews who escaped persecution in Galilee in the second century BCE. Although they assimilated into the local culture to become a caste of oil pressers (teli), they retained their dietary restrictions and the practices of circum- cision and observing the Sabbath. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=NoPZu79hqaEC&pg=RA1-PA24&dq=shaniwar+teli&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsmt2-oMD8AhXFwzgGHQo9BMs4FBDoAXoECAQQAw#v=onepage&q=shaniwar%20teli&f=false Page no:24 Encyclopedia of the Jewish Diaspora:Origins, Experiences, and Culture, Volume 2

@Satvikgeetha: Please have a read of WP:No original research, WP:INDENT and WP:SIGNATURE. I’m done here. Thanks. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 08:28, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

My revert to last best version

Some caste website was used to expand the article and WP:OR with lot of WP: Puffery was there. I reverted it to last sourced version.-Admantine123 (talk) 18:18, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 September 2023

I want to edit this post. 103.186.197.120 (talk) 16:11, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. - FlightTime (open channel) 16:12, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Related groups

Kandu and sundhi are not related groups to teli but in many states teli is considered to be subcaste of baniya and is even called as teli baniya. Remove unrelated kandu and sundhi as it's incorrect and there's no citations also. Shataksingh (talk) 20:11, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 September 2024

95.178.86.221 (talk) 13:46, 14 September 2024 (UTC)Teli is not a caste but a profession which had been adopted by people of various castes as it was quite profitable profession in the past. People all over the sub- continent used seed extracted oil for cooking purpose. Being the need of every house, said buisness was quite profitable in sub-continent long before the arrival of East India Compay who gave a new peak to this profession and buisness gain much attention in that era.

A Large number of people from various castes including Rajputs, Jats, Afgan Pashtoons (who invaded in this reagon with Shahab u Din Gauri & Alla ud Din Khilji and after fall of their empires they were forced to adopt diffirent professions for their livelihood as they were deprived from their lands) were engagad in the buisness. Also some arabic soldiers who came in sub-continent with Muhammad Bin Qasim and settled here, later adopted this profession along with their ancestoral buisness of cattles trading (as they used to trade cattles and camels while they were in arab so they continue this also in sub-continent). People who adopted this profession was either from a high social rank castes of that time or arabic and pashtoon races. For the reason there are more than 53 goats/gotras are found in teli community out of which some are Rajput goats like Chohan, Rathore, Bhatti. Khokhar, Panwar, Toor , Rangharh, Rajwana, Saroya, Bahlem & Janjua, some are of Jat clans like Gehlot, Wadharh, Banthia, Pawar, Jadran/Jindran & Tanur, etc. Gujjar clan Bargujjar, Khattri clans Bania, Ghanchi, Parshad etc are also present in this community. Gouri, Khilji are pashtoon tribes in teli community. Thaheem/ Taheem are only arabic race in this community who belong to Banu Tameem tribe of Arab. Thaheem goat are engaged in buisness of extacting seed oil and trade of cattles. Thaheem ancestoral tribe Banu Tameem is still involved in buisness of cattle trading. There are also teli Awans in Sialkot , Narowal and Shakargarh reagons of Pakistan.

Some Rajputs adopt this profession after freedom fight aginst British in 1857, British Goverment snatched lands and properties of those Rajputs who took part in fight against them. These Freedom fighters escaped and went into hiding to save their lives, later on famlies of these fighters engaged into this profession.

According to Sir Diesel Apson in “Punjab ki Zatein” “Most people belong to this community have so fair skin colour and pretty facial features that it seems you are looking at a Pathan. This indicate that these people either belong to a high social rank race in past or they definately had arbaic or pashtoon origin”.

In Rizley's opinion, the people of this profession must have belonged to the upper caste in ancient and medieval times. Because every Hindu accept oil for family affairs and other festivals from those whose social purity is un-questionable thus high social rank people could do the work of extracting oil at that time. In Hindu caste system hindu teli was granted a Varna (Veish/ Buisness) status, on the other hand the muslims with this profession were called “ Malech” (Foriegner) due to the reason that they didn't accept the supermacy of Barhmins being thereself ancestrols as rulers of sub-continent. For this reason muslim teli started to use of title “Malik” (meaning ruler) in order to diffrenciate themselves from hindus and to show their supermacy over them as both Pashtoons and arabic emperors used “Malik” as a title during Shahab-ud-Din and Alla-ud-Din Khilji era, so this title was generilized to all muslim telis later on. On the other hand hindu teli called themselves “Sahu”. Hindu teli converted to islam during muslim rule over Hindustan also use “Malik” as suffix before their origional caste.

During British era buisness of extracting oil from seeds reached at its peak as ships of East Indians company import this oil to british. Later on this buisness lose its importance due to use of banaspati ghee and became limited to some uses only. It was hard to earn livelihood by the people who were engaged in it so was replaced by other professions.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Jamedeus (talk) 23:41, 14 September 2024 (UTC)