Talk:Tea set

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Discussion about recent changes to Moroccan Tea Set

Hello everyone,

I recently made some edits to this article, aiming to enrich the details regarding the significance of the Moroccan tea set in Moroccan culture. Notably, I included information about the teapot and tea glasses, which I believe are crucial components of the Moroccan tea set. Moreover, I provided a citation linking to a detailed blog article that delves into the historical, artistic, and cultural significance of the Moroccan tea set.

I noticed that these edits were removed by another editor. I fully respect the role of the community in improving Wikipedia's content. However, I believe that these details offer valuable insights into Moroccan tea culture and should be included in the article.

I would appreciate if we could discuss the reason for the removal of these details, and possibly consider reinstating them. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and working together to make this article as informative and comprehensive as possible.

Best regards, Houssam.MR (talk) 23:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

There is nothing unique or special about the Moroccan tea set that would set it apart from the other North African tea sets and all the tea sets that are found throughout the Arab world and, to a lesser degree, the Muslim world. They mostly all look alike (with slight variations here and there). M.Bitton (talk) 23:43, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

I do not understand your removal of my version of text. All the tea sets that are found throughout the Arab world are no longer described in the article at all. The source that I have used explicitly stated that North African tea customs are special. What was the reason for removal? And no, I did not try to plug some random thesis. See details at Talk:Maghrebi mint tea#Moroccan_teawareВикидим (talk) 00:04, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Just so we're clear: I didn't accuse you of any wrongdoing (I didn't even know that you wrote part of the text). The reason for the removal is explained above (all the tea sets that are found throughout the Arab and Muslim word are more or less the same, so it makes no sense to create a section about a country, unless when we intend on creating a section for every single one of them). Is this article about tea customs or teas sets? M.Bitton (talk) 00:14, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Tea customs and tea sets are not very separable. Sudakov (the said thesis' author) explicitly mentions that: "Like the Japanese example, Moroccan mint tea ritual not only occurs in a “sacred” or “confined” space, which the teashop aptly represents, but its preparation also involves elaborately decorated implements" (p. 13, italics are mine). Being mostly ignorant in the area of tea, I cannot vouch for the veracity of these words and would happily accept a reference that says that all North African tea implements are the same - and describes them. But the apparent facts that Moroccans use glasses instead of cups, specifically shaped teapots made to reflect one's wealth, and a variant of samovar IMHO have some encyclopedic value. Викидим (talk) 00:24, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Elaborately decorated implements and glasses are used to drink tea throughout the Arab and Muslim world (Just Google any "North African or Middle Eastern country + tea set" and see for yourself). M.Bitton (talk) 00:30, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Do I understand you correctly that you would not object to a section on North African tea sets similar to the one for, say, Europe (mostly written by me)? Викидим (talk) 05:52, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: While trying to collect sources for a potential section on the North African tea sets, I have not found any good sources on the subject: Google Scholar produces just one result for "North African tea service" and precisely zero for a "North[ern] Africa[n] tea set[s]" (four versions) against 5 for, say, "Moroccan tea set". One of the Moroccan sources is very details (I used it to write the text you have deleted), while the one for the North Africa is on a completely another topic and mention the tea set just tangentially. Similar situation is in Google books. Therefore, it seems that the researchers are more interested in Moroccan sets than in the generic Northern Africa ones. Can you suggest a good source? Викидим (talk) 06:07, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

A book on the subject clearly spells that the Northern Africa tea drinking origin is indeed in Morocco: [1] (chapter is "Morocco and North Africa", text is "the drinking of tea [...] spread from Morocco to Algeria, Tunisia, Lybia"). So, perhaps, you would be OK with me restoring the Morocco section under a new name "North Africa" and added text on the spread of the custom based on this new source (Saberi, H. (2018). Teatimes: A World Tour. Reaktion Books. ISBN 978-1-78023-968-2. Retrieved 2023-07-15.). Викидим (talk) 06:32, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Saberi's source is about the "drinking of tea infused with tea" and not just the "drinking of tea" (her claim, which has nothing to do with the tea sets, is already attributed to the her on the Maghrebi mint tea article). The thesis is obviously not reliable: the student is just parroting what some guides told her during her visit in Morocco. She even believes that she was served tea there by some "Kaftan wearing Tuaregs" (btw, there are no Tuaregs in Morocco and the Tuaregs don't wear Kaftans).

Given the similarities between the tea sets that are found throughout the Arab/Muslim world, it may be possible to create a section about them, though the lack of reliable sources (as you have discovered) is an issue. M.Bitton (talk) 18:49, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: I have spent today considerable time looking for sources on generic North African tea sets - and came up empty handed in either English or French (I do not know Arabic and do not expect the Germans to contribute much in this area). There is no problem finding information about tea sets for particular regions. However, instead of declaring the tea sets to be common between Morocco and, say, Mali, the works on non-Moroccan tea sets in North Africa clearly point to Morocco as a source (a book on Mali tea I have added to the article sources is very typical: in the chapter on the Mali tea sets the word Morocco is everywhere). Morocco had apparently influenced the tea drinking habits on a large territory, similarly to, say, Japan. I plan to eventually create a separate article about the Moroccan tea set (the subject will be Maghrebi/Saharan tea set, but the terminology used by researchers suggests the stated title). If in the process I would come up with something generic, I will add a section here per our discussion. Викидим (talk) 04:07, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello M.Bitton,

Thank you for your input. I appreciate your concern about the article potentially becoming too segmented by region. However, the intent of the edits was not to marginalize other tea customs or sets, but to highlight the unique aspects of the Moroccan tea tradition.

While it's true that there are similarities in tea customs across the Arab and Muslim world, there are also notable differences. The Moroccan tea set, for instance, carries specific historical and cultural nuances that are unique to Morocco. It's not only about the physical components of the set but also about the cultural practices and significance tied to it.

I believe that discussing these unique elements enriches our understanding of tea culture across different regions. This doesn't necessarily mean we need to create a unique section for every region, but where there are unique elements of cultural, historical, or artistic significance, these are worth exploring. The source I provided from Marrakeche Crafts delves into these specifics, and I can bring up more scholarly sources, if necessary.

I hope we can find a balance that respects the universal aspects of tea culture while also recognizing its regional nuances. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

Best regards, Houssam.MR (talk) 00:42, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

This article is about "tea sets" and not tea culture (we already have a dedicated article for that). The tea sets across the Arab and Muslim world in general look more or less the same (they are just copies of other teapots, trays and glasses that have been created in Asia and spread first by the nomads and later on by the English). They obviously all carry nuances that are unique to their region, but is that really enough to warrant creating a section for each one of them? M.Bitton (talk) 18:49, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello M.Bitton, I understand your perspective on the similarity of tea sets across the Arab and Muslim world. Given that, I propose keeping the link to the article on the Moroccan tea set in the 'External Links' section. This could serve as a resource for readers interested in the historical and cultural nuances of Moroccan tea sets. It's not meant to promote the site, but to provide further information that could enrich the reader's understanding. Please let me know what you think about this. Thanks for considering my proposal. Houssam.MR (talk) 13:38, 17 July 2023 (UTC)