Talk:Tarot card games

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Reference to symbols in cards only for game

"However there are still traditional sequences of images in which the common lineage is visible: for example, a moon is visible at the bottom left corner of the XXI in the picture at right. "

Obviously, someone replaced the picture referenced in this paragraph in "Tarocchi as Game (mostly as Tarot or Tarock)". Whether this is merged into the other article or not, this should be fixed.199.46.200.232 16:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing that out. The image referred to is the one at the top of the page: all that had happened was that the article got much longer, so the reference was a long way away from the picture. I've changed it to "at the top of the page". —Blotwell 09:25, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tarot Family of card games

I support an introductory page with all of the tarot family of card games listed. Ideally this should be under tarot, but there you run into the conflict with the occultists. The name in the English language for the family of card games is Tarot, and since this is the English version of Wikipedia, the term in English should be the prefered one. In other languages it is Tarock, Taraut, Tarocco (Tarocchi), etc. They are all related trick-taking card games with a common origin. That is why they are all included in Michael Dummett's book The Game of Tarot . They do not use identical cards of course. That is because of divergences in playing card fashions and suit signs in each region. In german speaking areas of Switzerland, they use the 1JJ Tarot pack with Italian suit signs. In Sicily, they use the unique Tarocco Siciliano pack. There are also Tarocco Piedmontese, Tarocco Bolognese, and other packs from Milan, etc. There are at least three distinct versions of the Austrian-style Tarock pack. Then there are the French tarot versions with the arabic numerals on the top. These are all tarot playing cards, and are used to play related games. The question is, why are Tarock and Tarocchi on the same page, while French Tarot is on another? Tarock and French Tarot have french suit symbols, while Tarocco uses Italian suit signs. There should be one introductory article for the family of tarot games (similar to the presentation in the Tarocchi article), then individual main articles on each regional variation (with cards used, style of play, regional variations, etc.). This is what is done with other cards games such as Rummy, where there are many variations and regional games. Most of the Rummy family of games are listed in a special section of the article. I think that Tarot (game) should be the general page, and perhaps a special page created for "French Tarot", Tarocco (Tarrochi), Troccas (Swiss), Austrian-style Tarock, and Minchiate. The problem with all this evidently arises due to the unique situation of one family of card games having varying playing card standards in various regions. -- Parsa 21:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it might be good for "Tarocchi" to re-direct to "Tarot family of card games" as this appears to be an introductory article on the subject and for "Tarot (game)" to re-direct to "French Tarot" as it is the regional game played in France. I very much agree with this approach, for each regional variant to have its own page. I have started the English language "Königrufen" article for the popular Austrian game. Smiloid 23:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)+[reply]

"all of the tarot family of card games listed"! There must be hundreds of them (just as there are hundreds of games played with a bridge/poker pack). By the way - something that (as far as I know) characterises all Tarock games is the rule that, if you can't follow suit, you must play a trump. This applies even in Bavarian Tarock, a game played with a standard German 36-card pack that has no dedicated trump suit. Maproom (talk) 20:21, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tarot card games

I've re-directed to better indicate it's contents. Smiloid 22:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

May have introduced trumps?

"Tarot games may have introduced the concept of trumps to card games." - is there any doubt? --KnightMove (talk) 21:51, 24 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dummett mentions that the idea of trumps has also been invented independently in Karnöffel, but linguistic evidence suggests that the idea spread from Tarot and not Karnöffel. I believe it used the term gewählte Farbe "elected suit" rather than "Trump" or "Triumph" or some variant. Perhaps this information should be added? Tetragnathos (talk) 00:42, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is true and is now mentioned in the lede. Dummett refers to them as trumps initially but then points out that, not only are they different, but are also never called trumps in the literature. Unfortunately where games of the Karnöffel family survive, their proponents often call the chosen suits, trumps. Bermicourt (talk) 13:37, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Has any source elaborated on the linguistic origin of the word "trump"? Wiktionary states that it comes from Old French triumphe but can this be verified? What lead to the change of the final /f/ to /p/ and the divergence of "trump" from the word "triumph" that still exists and is still commonly used? Tetragnathos (talk) 14:10, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If I recall correctly, the tarot cards were called trionfi (both the pack and the trumps), a word that means "triumph". When the notion of trumps was added to a standard pack, the game was called Triomphe in French - it had presumably been called Trionfi in Italian, which is why the tarot trumps were renamed tarocchi. Triomphe travelled to Germany where it was called Tr(i)umpfspiel, to the Low Countries where it was called Troeven or Troefspel and to Britain where it became Triumph aka French Ruff (ruff = rob). So in one sense, the word was just translated.Bermicourt (talk) 15:23, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I see, though that doesn't explain why they are called "trumps" and not "triumphs". Perhaps the word "trump" is borrowed from the German Tr(i)umpfspiel, while "triumphs" was a translation? This would explain why "trumps" have a final "p" and lack "i". Though perhaps that's outside the scope of card games and it's something for linguists to deal with. Tetragnathos (talk) 16:52, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect trump and triumph are doublets with the former derived from German, as you suggest, and the latter from French. See Wiktionary. What is significant is that, with the creation of Tarot cards, came one of the greatest innovations in card game history - the feature of trumps that transformed pedestrian games into ones of greater unpredictability and skill. Yet hardly anyone in the English-speaking world associates Tarot cards with games, but only with fortune telling. Meanwhile our European friends are rather better informed e.g. French Tarot is the second most popular card game in France... and with good reason. Bermicourt (talk) 18:46, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Baronetti

Baronetti is a head-to-head tarot game typical of Piedmont. It is not much strategic but it's the school for learning more complex games. Perhaps it is worth to mention it, since it is so different from all the other tarot games. Little bishop (talk) 00:52, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

French tarot is mostly 4 players

In the list section of the article, french tarot is listed under "three players". By far the most popular way to play is with 4 players, that's how french tarot is played in tournaments because it's the most strategic. The second most popular way to play is with 5 players, the 3-player variant is barely ever played. 2A02:842A:25FA:4F01:FABD:C46A:1882:84FF (talk) 07:40, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]