Talk:Taiwan frigate scandal

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Edit Request

Part of an edit requested by an editor with a conflict of interest has been implemented.

There are several inaccuracies and imbalances within this article which need correction - I trust that we can work together to ensure the article is factual and meets all Wikipedia guidelines. For transparency, I declare that I have a connection with Bruno Wang.

This article is disproportionately focused on members of the Wang family and does not serve well as a summary of the subject. A number of the allegations against the Wang family are also wrong and inaccurate. Though there are many wider issues with how this article is written, the following are the most urgent points to address.

1. It is inaccurate to say that Andrew Wang’s wife and children were indicted by Taiwanese prosecutors on charges of bribery, or money laundering. In particular, none of Bruno Wang his mother and siblings have ever been indicted for bribery, or money laundering. The claim regarding Bruno Wang, his mother, and siblings should therefore be removed. Moreover, and in this context, it should be mentioned that "Andrew Wang’s wife and children were ruled as innocent third parties who could not be accused of any criminal offence in 2019 by the Taiwanese Supreme Court." https://www.lesoir.be/425550/article/2022-02-22/suissesecrets-un-compte-suisse-relance-laffaire-des-fregates-de-taiwan

Not done The current language and cited reference (TAIPEI TIMES) specifically states Prosecutors in 2006 indicted Wang on bribery, money laundering and related illegal actions, seeking a life sentence for him, as well as a 16-year term for his wife, and terms of between 11 and 14 years for his four children. Also, the proposed reference is behind a paywall. Duke Gilmore (talk) 01:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

2. The language claiming that Bruno Wang was "embroiled" in a cash for honours scandal is unnecessarily sensational and the claim is also wrong. Bruno Wang never sought or received any honour. The paragraph on the donation should therefore be removed, as it is inaccurate and, in any event, is entirely tangential to the topic of this article given that he was ruled an innocent third party.

Not done Firstly, as an aside, someone cannot be "proven innocent", only "not proven guilty". The quote you provide above cannot be seen in any of the references that can be accessed. The current article language reflects the cited reference. Duke Gilmore (talk) 01:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

3. Bruno Wang is mentioned 6 times in the text compared to 4 mentions of his father Andrew Wang, who was the only family member actually involved in the deal that is the subject matter of the article. The article should be reviewed as per the Manual of Style to remove the unnecessary mentions, as it currently creates a false impression of increased relevance.

The article creator has also inserted internal links to Bruno Wang from 6 different articles on Wikipedia. A redirect exists from Bruno Wang to this article, so most of these links are redundant. More concerningly, the insistence on redirecting from, mentioning and linking to Bruno Wang, who is a peripheral figure in the situation and was ruled an innocent third party, is targeting him unfairly.

These are the articles in question:

The reference to Rebecca Wang is also irrelevant; she is not a joint account holder and was also ruled an innocent third party in any event.

Partly done Again, no one can be proven innocent, and Bruno and Rebecca were both charged, and the cited references repeatedly state this. I changed the text in this article and the articles above to "Andrew Wang and his family" in the first, third, and fourth instances. Duke Gilmore (talk) 01:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC).[reply]

4. After the sentence "In 2017 Taiwan’s supreme court ordered the return of US$312.5 million in illegal proceeds held by the Wang family," I would ask that the following sentence is added to accurately reflect the results of this: "Of the original allegations made against Andrew Wang, many of the ensuing financial allegations have been dismissed and described by various courts as "wholly unintelligible", "hopelessly general and vague", and "scandalous and vexatious"." https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/09/19/prince-charless-charity-mired-controversy-donor-linked-taiwanese/

Not done The cited reference is behind a paywall - sorry. Duke Gilmore (talk) 01:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

5. There are a number of instances where the language used is misleading. For example:

a. Andrew Wang is described as an "arms dealer", but this does not accurately describe the scope of his activity. He was a businessman contracted by Thompson-CSF to advise on a contract for the supply of naval frigates to the Taiwanese navy. Given the geopolitical situation in the region at the time, this was a very important acquisition by Taiwan.

Not done It seems to me to be an appropriate description in the context of this transaction. Duke Gilmore (talk) 01:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

b. It is also incorrect to say that Andrew Wang "fled" Taiwan; he was abroad at the time and decided not to return to Taiwan due to the unjust and unfair judicial treatment he would have likely received if he had gone back. It should be noted that the reputation of treatment of detainees in Taiwan at the time was not good and that "until recently, the human rights situation in Taiwan was worrying, not only because of the suspension of certain civil liberties, but also because of the crackdown on pro-independence circles and the frequency of sentencing of death. Persons detained in prisons were frequently subjected to ill-treatment." https://www.servat.unibe.ch/dfr/c2130217.html

Not done Several cited refences use the language "...fled Taiwan...after..". Wikipedia does not allow court documents as a reference. Duke Gilmore (talk) 01:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

c. The actual allegations were not made until after the contract, but the language used reads as if certain events were concurrent.

Not done This request is not clear. Duke Gilmore (talk) 01:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

d. The current wording claims the body of Captain Yin Ching-feng was "found dumped" in the ocean; the source itself only says "found" and it is not appropriate to infer beyond that without a reliable source as per WP:No Original Research.

Done Duke Gilmore (talk) 01:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I propose this paragraph be changed to more accurately read as follows:

Eight people involved in the contract died in unusual and possibly suspicious circumstances.[2] The body of presumptive whistle-blower Captain Yin Ching-feng was found in the ocean on 9 December 1993.[3]

Already

Done as described above. Duke Gilmore (talk) 01:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Businessman and intermediary Andrew Wang, who advised Thomson-CSF on the contract for the supply of naval frigates, was later accused of being part of the affair. He was abroad at that time and did not return to Taiwan for fear of ill-treatment if detained in that jurisdiction.

Not done No citation provided and seems self-serving. Duke Gilmore (talk) 01:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you in advance for considering this request Tidesino (talk) 12:00, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See also the comments by the requestor (above) at this AFD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bruno Wang. The conclusion of the discussion there was to redirect to this article. Geoff | ^{Who, me?} 18:12, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Tidesino Please see detailed comments above. Duke Gilmore (talk) 01:30, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request November 2023

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

For transparency, I declare that I have a connection with Bruno Wang, and would like to make a further request on this article.

The OCCRP article (https://www.occrp.org/en/suisse-secrets/leading-taiwan-politician-had-secret-credit-suisse-account-at-time-of-major-defense-corruption-scandal, citation 11 in article References) has been updated with a corrective statement to address several errors made by the organisation. The current archived version of this citation (https://web.archive.org/web/20220224092628/https://www.occrp.org/en/suisse-secrets/leading-taiwan-politician-had-secret-credit-suisse-account-at-time-of-major-defense-corruption-scandal) was captured before this correction was published.

Please can the archived version be replaced with an up-to-date version featuring the correction.

Many thanks, Tidesino (talk) 11:34, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Archived URL updated Spintendo 04:24, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]