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Issues from January 2010

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Removed {{article issues}} from January 2010 as these appear to have been addressed. Please relist and discuss if needed. — MrDolomite • Talk 04:59, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The "BLACK" tab? Please explain.

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Would whoever keeps adding the "BLACK" tab please explain what you are refering to or add a citation. If you do a search for "SNIPER", "AIR ASSAULT", "FISTER", "SCOUT", or "RECON" on the internet you will quickly find these tabs for sale or being unofficially displayed/worn. It is also easy to find joke tabs like "CHAIRBORNE" and "POWERPOINT", but I suppose those do not deserve to be listed since they are not only unofficial but also not serious. In any case, I cannot find anything about a "BLACK tab".

And just to head off any sort of nuts conspiracy theory justification for including the "BLACK" tab in this entry, such as: "The tab is secret, that's why you can't find anything about it." If that were the case, then it can't be included on Wikipedia. Wikipedia cannot include anything without published/citable evidence of its existence. Second, there generally are not secret patches/tabs since patches/tabs are by their very nature meant to be displayed and worn (i.e. not be secret). So if by "BLACK" you mean a black operations patch/tab, then (1) you have provided no reason to think such a patch/tab exists, and (2) it is very unlikely that any such patch/tab would exist since it would be counterproductive to the secrecy of black operations. -Atfyfe (talk) 23:57, 30 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Possible Additions

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We may be missing a few unit patches: Ranger Challenge Tab, the Army Band Tab [1], and the Pershing Tab (see: 56th_Field_Artillery_Command). I am not sure how the ranger challenge tab works, so maybe it shouldn't be included. The Army Band seems like it deserves inclusion as a unit tab. The Pershing tab may belong to a retired unit, so maybe just deserves mention in a 'non-active' tab section. - Atfyfe (talk) 20:36, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How's it going Atfyfe?
I think you're right, we are missing some tabs. Here is what I know:
  • The Ranger Challenge Tab is an Army ROTC only tab; once a cadet has graduated from ROTC, they can no longer wear the tab. Since it's a pre-commissioning tab, much like other ROTC badges and awards, they have not made the "cut line" for active duty, guard, and reserve badges and tabs for which these pages have focused. We can change that self imposed standard if we want; however, we would have to do some more homework to make certain we are not missing other ROTC and JROTC tabs before making that move.
  • Many, if not all Army Bands, have their own distinctive band tabs. We could try and find them all and list them on this page or maybe we could make a generic statement about band tabs. Regardless, I'm not aware of a TIOH or Army approved generic band tab, such as the one you reference above. Every Army Band has its own unique regalia, given that it falls within certain regulations.
  • The Pershing Tab was a very specific unit tab that is no longer in use and the unit that had the tab is no longer in existence. As you suggested, we could make a historical section on this page and cite its relevance in Army history.
McChizzle (talk) 22:10, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I added Pershing before I saw this. I once saw the Pershing tab worn by a National Guard soldier from Pennsylvania, but I have not been to identify the unit. there is also a Pershing Rifles tab, but I believe this is a cadet group. --  Gadget850 talk 23:20, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oddly, the Pershing tab is still mentioned in AR 670-1. --  Gadget850 talk 23:23, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Atfyfe, I had some free time and added a section on Army Band Tabs. Please take a look and make any changes you think are necessary.
Best regards, McChizzle (talk) 21:51, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I know of Three (3) Tabs not mentioned. The First is the L.R.R.P. Tab as presented after being trained by U.S. Army Special Forces. A very plain tab usually embroidered black letters L.R.R.P. on O.D. Green, border O.D. Green. Many Units instead would incorporate "L.R.R.P." somewhere within their Unit's Shoulder Patches, instead of allowing the wearing of the O.D. Green L.R.R.P. tab. The Official Class A version was a black tab with yellow (gold) letters; just like the U.S. Army colored strip sewn on above the left pocket during the beginning of the Vietnam War. Most U.S. Army Special Forces L.R.R.P.s assigned to the U.S. Army Ranger Battalions were not allowed to wear the U.S. Army Special Forces L.R.R.P. Tab and could not wear the U.S. Army Ranger Battalion shoulder patch either, until finishing "In Country" (Republic of Vietnam) U.S. Army Ranger Training. Yes, that was "unfair" as U.S. Army Special Forces L.R.R.P.s are supposed to be higher than U.S. Army Rangers, that was just what happened (U.S. Army Rangers used assigned U.S. Army Special Forces L.R.R.P.s as "SHXT" Boys). U.S. Army Special Forces L.R.R.P.s would be disbanded after the Vietnam War, later became RECONDO of the U.S. Army Rangers, then back to U.S. Army Special Forces as LRS-D.
The Second that would later replace the L.R.R.P. Tab after the Vietnam War, would be the RECONDO Tab (black with yellow (gold) letters) and or Qualification Pin (right breast pocket). Awarded after successful RECONDO Training with the U.S. Army Ranger Battalions; 1st 75th U.S. Army Hunter Army Air Field or 2nd 75th Fort Lewis Washington State.
During the Vietnam War there was also the "Airmobile" Tab, black with yellow (gold) letters. Most Units would incorporate "Airmobile" into their Units Shoulder Sleeve Patches, especially the U.S. Army's Air Cavalry Units. Airmobile would later become "Air Assault", changing from a Shoulder Tab to a Qualification Pin.
Subdued tabs were usually O.D. Green with O.D. Green Borders; Brown Letters to represent yellow (gold); black letters to represent White (Silver) just like Subdued Rank.
These three were Official Tabs, as Sold in the U.S. Military's Clothing Sales Stores, made by Meyer (before Vanguard brand). Meyer also made the Issue versions for the U.S. Military. Nakamuradavid (talk) 07:29, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I added a section dealing with the RECONDO tab. I will need to do more research on LRRP tabs, but I am semi-aware of their existence. Was there an LRRP school that issued the tab? It's hard to navigate the boundry between unofficial patches that a handful of soldiers wore versus official patches issued by schools which maybe the regulations never got around to officially sanctioning. But I'll look more into LRRP next now that I've already added Recondo.
I think the Airmobile tab can be taken care of by simply mentioning it in the Air Assualt tab sub-section since - unless I am wrong - air assualt and air mobile are equivalent designations. I also added a subsection at the end as a "catch all" for ROTC and JROTC tabs. - Atfyfe (talk) 12:55, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I like what you have done Atfyfe. Like some sections of this article, I do not like the lack of credible citations to back things up and the RECONDO and LRRP tabs you have added lack good citations; even the book you cite does not appear to mention these tabs. The same holds true for the second paragraph of the Ranger Challenge Tab, no good citations listed. I would not want to list something without good citations to back them up.
For me I would follow your second definition of unofficial, it was awarded but not authorized Army wide. If we use your first definition, the article will loose focus and would never end. --McChizzle (talk) 23:31, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Atfyfe, I continue to search and cannot find any good evidence that the RECONDO and LRRP tabs were worn by U.S. Army soldiers of any era. What I can find is good evidence that the RECONDO Patch that was worn on the right pocket as well as a metal badge version of that patch—worn in the same manner as the early Jungle Expert Patch from the Fort Sherman JOTC school.
Publications that talk about what LRRP units would wear only discuss the wear of Ranger and Airborne Tabs.
If we cannot find good sources to use as evidence of these tabs being worn by U.S. Army soldiers, I think we should delete these entries.--McChizzle (talk) 21:08, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As best as I can tell, the RECONDO badge was common in the Vietnam era. That badge often included the word RECONDO. I am not sure if that should be counted as a tab. I've seen rare off images of RECONDO tabs, but about half of the photos of Vietnam era RECONDO badges (worn on the right pocket) have the word RECONDO above it and the other lack it. The pictures using RECONDO as a shoulder tab is more of a recent sort of phenomena. For a wikipedia entry we need better sources, I agree. But there is a common phenomena which many Vietnam vets will tell you about and which image searches show is real. But the exacts, I don't know. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]
The LRRP tab seems to be more of an actually worn tab by many (but maybe not all) of the Vietnam era LRRP units. Again, we need better sources. I am not a Vietnam-era guy, but I suspect we haven't done justice to some of the Vietnam-era tabs or badges. Thank you for your hard work McChizzle, I am not sure how RECONDO and LRRP badges/tabs should be integrated into wikipedia but in the next week or so I'll try and do some more research. If you think we should cut it for now, then that's fine. I am just trying to get a start to adequately covering this topic. - Atfyfe (talk) 03:34, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalization

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Per AR 670-1 tab is lower case , such as Airborne tab, Sapper tab. --21lima (talk) 12:45, 15 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

DoD publications do not supersede American English grammar rules.--McChizzle (talk) 13:55, 15 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So what is the rule here? --21lima (talk) 06:47, 16 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ranger Scroll

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75th Ranger Reg. Scroll

Is the Ranger regiment scroll a unit patch or a unit tab or both? It's essentially the only unit patch that is itself a tab/scroll with words rather than images for symbolism. Here's the two ways of seeing the Ranger regiment scroll:

(a) It's a unit patch just like any other except it is unique in how it essentially just involves words on a tab/scroll rather than images;
or
(b) It's a unit level tab just like "AIRBORNE" or "MOUNTAIN". There's the "RANGER" tab earned and worn individually by soldiers, but then there's also the Ranger scroll worn by every member of a ranger regiment in a manner similar to the airborne and mountain tabs.

I am not sure which of the above the Ranger scroll should fall. Essentially the Ranger SSI is a unit patch and Ranger unit tab combined into one - so it's hard to make sense of in the tab / SSI categorization scheme.

I think the SSI for Ranger regiments just break the standard rules for Army unit SSI / tabs which makes it hard to know what to do with. Thoughts?

- Atfyfe (talk) 12:47, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Per the U.S. Army Institute of Heraldry (TIOH) and U.S. Army documentation, it is defined as a shoulder sleeve insignia (SSI). Unit tabs are different in that they are added to an SSI to denote a unique function—or historical function—of a unit. The Ranger SSI, depicted as a scroll, has always been unique using words in the SSI from World War II forward: In fact there are four different versions/SSIs worn by the 75th Ranger Regiment's units: the Regiment's , Special Troops Battalion's , 1st Battalion's , 2nd Battalion's , and 3rd Battalion's . I would not want us to depart from TIOH and U.S. Army documentation just because it is different than the rest. --McChizzle (talk) 23:09, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hawaiian Division Tab

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I believe this article may be missing a Unit Tab. The Hawaiian Division, (Hawaiian Division), which existed in the U.S. Army from 1921-1941, had what appears to be a Unit Tab above their divisional insignia. Since some specialized single-division unit tabs, like "Air Assault", "Arctic", and "Combined Division" are considered their own tabs, while the 75th Ranger Scroll isn't, I have created this thread to discuss whether the "HAWAIIAN" Tab should be included or not prior to modifying the article. 2600:1003:B147:AA05:491B:89FA:B840:4117 (talk) 11:14, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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