Talk:Tabasco sauce/Archive 1

McIlhenny's Gold

There's a new book that was just written by Jeffrey Rothfeder that finally brings into focus the real history of this company. A lot of what McI states as their history is actually fiction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronproot (talk • contribs) 00:37, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

From a review of McIlhenny's Gold in The Wall Street Journal, Oct. 10, 2007:

The story actually begins in the pre-Civil War era with a New Orleans plantation owner named Maunsel White, who was famous for the food served at his sumptuous dinner parties. Mr. White's table no doubt groaned with the region's varied fare -- drawing inspiration from European, Caribbean and Cajun sources -- but one of his favorite sauces was of his own devising, made from a pepper named for its origins in the Mexican state of Tabasco. White added the sauce to various dishes and bottled it for his guests.

"Although the McIlhennys have tried to dismiss the possibility," Mr. Rothfeder writes, "it seems clear now that in 1849, a full two decades before Edmund McIlhenny professed to discover the Tabasco pepper, White was already growing Tabasco chilies on his plantation." The author's evidence: a letter to the New Orleans Daily Delta newspaper attesting that the "Tobasco" is "a new species of red pepper, which Colonel White has introduced into this country." If nothing else, Mr. Rothfeder concludes, the McIlhenny sauce was inspired by White's recipe.

No mention of Maunsel White in the WP article. I put it here for reference in case someone wants to turn the article into something less like a McIlhenny advertorial. 03:26, 9 September 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.81.248.26 (talk)

Thanks for this; I have added in this information to help make the article more balanced. — Objectivesea (talk) 02:26, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Naming

The introductory text says that the sauce gained its name not from the Mexican state of Tabasco but from the tabasco pepper. From where did the pepper get its name? If it was from the state, then the sauce did indirectly get its name from Tabasco state. If the sauce named the pepper used in its production, then surely this is worthy of comment. Anyone know for sure either way? Nach0king 20:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the pepper got its name from the sauce; the pepper just had a generic name until in 1888 it was officially named for the sauce into which it was made. The sauce itself, however, was named after the Mexican state.

--Skb8721 21:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

P.S. On closer reading, the introductory text says that the sauce "acquired its name from the state of Tabasco in Mexico." And that's correct. The pepper was named for the sauce, and the sauce was named for the Mexican state. So no need to alter the text.

--Skb8721 22:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Length of Aging?

I vaguely recall a documenatry on PBS about Tabasco, and the length of time to age it surprised me; something like 5-10 years. Anyone know exactly how long?

On the bottle it says 5 years.--68.212.84.101 05:49, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Er, if you follow the "make your own tabasco sauce" link at the bottom of the page it talks about the "original" aging process, 3 years then "some more", etc etc... Tzf 23:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

The TABASCO.com web site says that the pepper mash is aged for three years before it's mixed with vinegar, stirred intermittently for another month, and then bottled. --Skb8721 16:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

---

What is then the oldest American food patent? Necco wafers? Rlquall 15:51, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Good Question! BigFatDave 05:14, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Critique of Trivia Section

I don't have a problem with the Trivia section. Other articles have Trivia sections (or Miscellanea sections), which serve a genuine purpose -- to present data that by its nature does not fall neatly into the remainder of the article.

I suggest we bring back the Trivia section until we discuss whether or not it should be retained or removed. Any comments?

--Skb8721 15:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Other articles tend to have trivia sections full of garbage. In this case the cultural aspect may be seen as important, so I don't object to it being replaced, but is it really adding something to the article to pick out every film and famous person that has ever used Tabasco? Chris Cunningham 16:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Super Bowl

I'd heard that the success of the sauce was related in some way to a Super Bowl ad. Is there any truth to this? David 22:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

There have been a few Tabasco ads produced for the Super Bowl, but these were made relatively recently, after Tabasco sauce was already famous worldwide. --Skb8721 20:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

History Section

I took a crack (my first) at rewriting the History section, as before it just felt very advertisey and not written like a Wikipedia article should be written. I don't think it's perfect now, but it should hopefully be an improvement. --RufoSanch 22:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Tabasco™ Sauce

Do we really need to have the ™ cluttering up the page? This isn't a McIlhenny press release, and I don't think it's condoned by the manual of style. --Dhartung | Talk 20:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe just put it only after the first reference to the trademark? Also, it should perhaps be a (R) (circle R) symbol, not a TM symbol? --Skb8721 02:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Certainly, it should be removed from all but the first reference. Actually, I believe it should be removed from all references---after all, the article clearly states that the name is a trademark. The symbol adds no information and needn't be included to appease marketers, who are universally mentally retarded. I will do this. Furthermore I will rearrange the trademark's mention in the tabasco pepper article, which, being a botanical article, doesn't need a third of its intro paragraph dedicated to advertising bullshit. 69.250.43.106 04:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:MOSTM makes it clear it should be avoided. hateless 18:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Taste

Is not so "hot", but very sour since a lot of vinegar. All European and America made so-called "hot" sauces actually are sour - they consist of very few amount of peppers and a huge load of vinegar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.46.19.136 (talk) 05:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging

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Bottle size?

Article mentions bottle size is 57 ml but I'm holding one that says 60 ml. The picture here has clearly 57 written on it, so I checked the web site and it seems they erase that part of the picture. Probably there are different versions. It's no big deal though :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.245.174.89 (talk) 11:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Health aspects

I've seen recent studies that indicate some dressings like vinegar and soy sauce may not be good for you. I like this sauce, but certainly something that burns the mouth, nose, throat etc. should be examined further. I see no mention of the health aspect here.Ykral (talk) 03:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

extended link Problem

not sure what it is but it would appear that if you scroll to the bottom, then side scroll at regular intervals there are links this should not be

thanks,

SaiyanEmperor2008(talk)(Contribs) 14:22, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Reads like a Press Release

This is a well-written article, but it also reads like a press release from McIllhenny. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Diderot08 (talk • contribs) 04:43, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

arts and culture section

Why have this section with only one sentance? I attempted to add Looney Toons to it but it was deleted immediatly for reasons I don't quite understand. Looney toons used the brand of sauce in dozens of episodes, and even included the name in the title of one. Surely Looney Toons, which have been around since the WWII days is as an iconic as anything else in american culture. And the act of tricking one of the characters into drinking the tabasco hot sauce is very remembered because of it. Infact I would suggest that most people know of the sauce directly as a result of its use in the show97.91.179.137 (talk) 18:34, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Cheez-It edit.xcf

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot (talk) 16:52, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Request for Edit Help

Dear All,

My name is Shane K. Bernard and I've been a Wikipedia editor since 2006 (and am now ranked a yeoman editor).

I am also the corporate historian and curator to McIlhenny Company, maker of Tabasco brand Pepper Sauce on Avery Island, Louisiana.

Based on my research over the past 26 years, much of the information presently found in the entry for Tabasco Sauce regarding Maunsel White is incorrect or misleading.

While some of the claims in the entry are factually incorrect, others are merely speculative, having no basis in the historical record and relying ultimately on someone's gut instinct -- and, unfortunately, this speculation made it into print somewhere, which lends it a certain sense of authority.

For example, there is no known contemporary historical record (in correspondence, diaries, photographs, newspapers, etc.) indicating that Edmund McIlhenny and Maunsel White were "friends," much less that Edmund visited White's plantation and received peppers and a recipe from him. (If there is such contemporary evidence, where is it?) We do know, however, that White boiled his peppers during manufacture (he more than once revealed this to the media), whereas Edmund fermented his naturally (as McIlhenny Company still does today). Clearly, then, White's and Edmund's recipes were not identical. And these are but two issues among several I can identify in the current article's Maunsel White-related passage.

However, I am precluded from making edits to this highly debatable issue because of my company affiliation. I thus cannot, for example, cite pertinent passages from my 2007 book, Tabasco: An Illustrated History.

I would be happy, however, to propose appropriate changes so that an experienced Wikipedia editor might make corrections or additions -- if they feel those revisions are warranted.

This solution was proposed to me by a member of the Wikipedia Volunteer Response Team.

Please let me know if an editor who would be willing to assist in revising this entry in whatever way they think appropriate so that the article is more accurate.

Sincerely,

Skb8721 (talk) 16:17, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Reply 5-FEB-2019

  Specification requested  

• It is not known what changes are requested to be made. Please state your desired changes in the form of "Change x to y using z".

Change x to y using z

x	A verbatim description of the old text to be removed from the article (if any)
y	A verbatim description of the new text to be added to the article (if any)
z	A reference which verifies the requested change

Example edit request:

Please change:

• The Sun's diameter is 25 miles.

 ↑This is x↑ 

to read as:

• The Sun's diameter is 864,337.3 miles.

 ↑This is y↑ 

using as a reference:

• Sjöblad, Tristan (2018). The Sun. Academic Press. p. 1.

 ↑This is z↑ 

Please ensure that all provided references are formatted in the citation style identical to that presented in the Tabasco sauce article itself (i.e., Citation Style 1). When ready to proceed, please open a new {{request edit}} template under a Level 2 heading on this page and place the requested changes underneath the template. Thank you!
Regards,  Spintendo  18:01, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Notes

I will do this shortly. It may take a few days to compile the data in the requested format. Thanks kindly, Skb8721 (talk) 22:47, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Request edit 14-FEB-2019

Here are the changes I suggest (below) in response to the data I consider factually incorrect or speculative. Please let me know what you think. Sincerely, Skb8721 (talk) 22:12, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• Please change:

However, as Jeffrey Rothfeder's book McIlhenny's Gold points out, at least some of the self-promotional McIlhenny Company official history is fictitious. An October 10, 2007 book review by Mark Robichaux in The Wall Street Journal, Oct. 10, 2007, quotes that book:

"The story actually begins in the pre-Civil War era with a New Orleans plantation owner named Maunsel White, who was famous for the food served at his sumptuous dinner parties. Mr. White's table no doubt groaned with the region's varied fare — drawing inspiration from European, Caribbean and Cajun sources — but one of his favorite sauces was of his own devising, made from a pepper named for its origins in the Mexican state of Tabasco. White added the sauce to various dishes and bottled it for his guests. Although the McIlhennys have tried to dismiss the possibility, it seems clear now that in 1849, a full two decades before Edmund McIlhenny professed to discover the Tabasco pepper, White was already growing Tabasco chilies on his plantation."

Rothfeder cited a January 26, 1850 letter to the New Orleans Daily Delta newspaper crediting the slave-owning banker-politician Maunsel White as having introduced "Tobasco red pepper" (sic) to the southern United States and asserting that the McIlhenny sauce was at least inspired by White's recipe. Jean Andrews, in her book "Peppers: the Domesticated Capsicums," goes further to declare — citing United States Circuit Court testimony from 1922 — that prior to his death in 1862, “White gave some [pepper] pods, along with his sauce recipe, to his friend Edmund McIlhenny, during a visit to White’s Deer Range Plantation.”

• to read as:

However, Jeffrey Rothfeder's book McIlhenny's Gold asserts that at least some of the self-promotional McIlhenny Company official history is fictitious. An October 10, 2007 book review by Mark Robichaux in The Wall Street Journal, Oct. 10, 2007, quotes that book:

"The story actually begins in the pre-Civil War era with a New Orleans plantation owner named Maunsel White, who was famous for the food served at his sumptuous dinner parties. Mr. White's table no doubt groaned with the region's varied fare — drawing inspiration from European, Caribbean and Cajun sources — but one of his favorite sauces was of his own devising, made from a pepper named for its origins in the Mexican state of Tabasco. White added the sauce to various dishes and bottled it for his guests. Although the McIlhennys have tried to dismiss the possibility, it seems clear now that in 1849, a full two decades before Edmund McIlhenny professed to discover the Tabasco pepper, White was already growing Tabasco chilies on his plantation."

Rothfeder cited a January 26, 1850 letter to the New Orleans Daily Delta newspaper crediting the slave-owning banker-politician Maunsel White as having introduced "Tobasco red pepper" (sic) to the southern United States and asserting that the McIlhenny sauce was at least inspired by White's recipe. Jean Andrews, in her book "Peppers: the Domesticated Capsicums," goes further to declare — citing United States Circuit Court testimony from 1922 — that prior to his death in 1862, “White gave some [pepper] pods, along with his sauce recipe, to his friend Edmund McIlhenny, during a visit to White’s Deer Range Plantation.”

Regardless, McIlhenny Company states it has always regarded White’s cultivation of red peppers as established fact. It suggests, however, that White’s and McIlhenny’s peppers might have been different varieties, despite their identical names. Moreover, the company states there is no evidence that White’s recipe inspired McIlhenny’s, noting that White’s published recipe called for boiling his concoction, while McIlhenny permitted his to ferment naturally — indicating the recipes were dissimilar. Finally, the company asserts there is no known contemporary archival evidence (in the form of correspondence, diaries, etc.) showing that McIlhenny knew White, much less that McIlhenny visited White’s plantation and received peppers and a pepper sauce recipe from White.

• using as a reference:

Bernard, Shane K. (2007). Tabasco: An illustrated History. Avery Island, Louisiana: McIlhenny Company. p. 32, 44. ISBN 9780979780806.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Skb8721 (talk • contribs) 22:12, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

References

Reply 14-FEB-2019

  Edit request declined  

• Thank you for correctly formatting your earlier request, that was much appreciated.
• Unfortunately, your request has been declined because the source reference provided for your proposed additional claim comes from the McIlhenny Company itself, who acted as the source's publisher. To verify this claim and to ensure WP:NPOV, the source provided should be independent of the company.

Please feel free to submit any additional independent sources you may locate in the future, and to propose them here on the talk page at your earliest convenience.
Regards,  Spintendo  23:35, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Notes

• • Thank you, Spintendo. I will consider this and see if I cannot find independent sources for the proposed text.

Request edit 21-FEB-2019

• Spintendo, I have revised the notes and present the entire revision below. Will this work?

Sincerely, --23:31, 21 February 2019 (UTC)Skb8721 (talk)

• Please change:

Extended content

However, as Jeffrey Rothfeder's book McIlhenny's Gold points out, at least some of the self-promotional McIlhenny Company official history is fictitious. An October 10, 2007 book review by Mark Robichaux in The Wall Street Journal, Oct. 10, 2007, quotes that book: "The story actually begins in the pre-Civil War era with a New Orleans plantation owner named Maunsel White, who was famous for the food served at his sumptuous dinner parties. Mr. White's table no doubt groaned with the region's varied fare — drawing inspiration from European, Caribbean and Cajun sources — but one of his favorite sauces was of his own devising, made from a pepper named for its origins in the Mexican state of Tabasco. White added the sauce to various dishes and bottled it for his guests. Although the McIlhennys have tried to dismiss the possibility, it seems clear now that in 1849, a full two decades before Edmund McIlhenny professed to discover the Tabasco pepper, White was already growing Tabasco chilies on his plantation." Rothfeder cited a January 26, 1850 letter to the New Orleans Daily Delta newspaper crediting the slave-owning banker-politician Maunsel White as having introduced "Tobasco red pepper" (sic) to the southern United States and asserting that the McIlhenny sauce was at least inspired by White's recipe. Jean Andrews, in her book "Peppers: the Domesticated Capsicums," goes further to declare — citing United States Circuit Court testimony from 1922 — that prior to his death in 1862, “White gave some [pepper] pods, along with his sauce recipe, to his friend Edmund McIlhenny, during a visit to White’s Deer Range Plantation.” to read as: However, Jeffrey Rothfeder's book McIlhenny's Gold asserts that at least some of the self-promotional McIlhenny Company official history is fictitious. An October 10, 2007 book review by Mark Robichaux in The Wall Street Journal, Oct. 10, 2007, quotes that book: "The story actually begins in the pre-Civil War era with a New Orleans plantation owner named Maunsel White, who was famous for the food served at his sumptuous dinner parties. Mr. White's table no doubt groaned with the region's varied fare — drawing inspiration from European, Caribbean and Cajun sources — but one of his favorite sauces was of his own devising, made from a pepper named for its origins in the Mexican state of Tabasco. White added the sauce to various dishes and bottled it for his guests. Although the McIlhennys have tried to dismiss the possibility, it seems clear now that in 1849, a full two decades before Edmund McIlhenny professed to discover the Tabasco pepper, White was already growing Tabasco chilies on his plantation." Rothfeder cited a January 26, 1850 letter to the New Orleans Daily Delta newspaper crediting the slave-owning banker-politician Maunsel White as having introduced "Tobasco red pepper" (sic) to the southern United States and asserting that the McIlhenny sauce was at least inspired by White's recipe. Jean Andrews, in her book "Peppers: the Domesticated Capsicums," goes further to declare — citing United States Circuit Court testimony from 1922 — that prior to his death in 1862, “White gave some [pepper] pods, along with his sauce recipe, to his friend Edmund McIlhenny, during a visit to White’s Deer Range Plantation.” Regardless, McIlhenny Company states it has always regarded White’s cultivation of red peppers as established fact. It suggests, however, that White’s and McIlhenny’s peppers might have been different varieties, despite their identical names. Moreover, the company states there is no evidence that White’s recipe inspired McIlhenny’s, noting that White’s published recipe called for boiling his concoction, while McIlhenny permitted his to ferment naturally — indicating the recipes were dissimilar. Finally, the company asserts there is no known contemporary archival evidence (in the form of correspondence, diaries, etc.) showing that McIlhenny knew White, much less that McIlhenny visited White’s plantation and received peppers and a pepper sauce recipe from White. using as a reference: Fuller, R. Reese (26 November 2007). "Hot Stuff". gambit. New Orleans, Louisiana. Retrieved 15 February 2019. Grace, Roger (22 July 2004). "Is Tabasco Sauce Patterned After Colonel White's 'Tobasco Extract'?". Metropolitan News-Enterprise. Los Angeles, California. Retrieved 15 February 2019. These references would go at the end of the last paragraph (which is the new paragraph). Note I also revised the first sentence of the first paragraph from "as Jeffrey Rothfeder's book McIlhenny's Gold points out. . . ." to the less axiomatic "However, Jeffrey Rothfeder's book McIlhenny's Gold asserts. . . ." Regarding the new sources, Spintendo, please note that the passage to which I refer in Fuller's online magazine article is: "Bernard counters that it's been proven that the two men used different techniques. 'White cooked his peppers and McIlhenny fermented his' to make their sauces and that White's family sold and marketed his product to the public only after his death in 1863. White was making his sauce before McIlhenny sold his first batch in 1869 from the previous year's crop of peppers, but Bernard says, 'Whether or not the peppers are the same, nobody knows.'" Also, the passage to which I refer in Grace's online magazine article is: "There is no trace of correspondence between McIlhenny and White, Bernard related, declaring that McIlhenny 'never communicated directly or indirectly with Maunsel White or his family.' He added: . . . 'I don’t think they actually knew each other.'" References

--23:31, 21 February 2019 (UTC)Skb8721 (talk

Reply 22-FEB-2019

In both the Fuller and Grace references the seminal source is Bernard — when what we need here are sources which are independent of the company, per WP:IIS.
Regards,  Spintendo  19:02, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, all known source material for emended data comes directly or indirectly from the company archives I administer: it exists nowhere else. Clearly it's a Catch-22 situation -- but I thank you for your efforts, which I do appreciate. Sincerely, --Skb8721 (talk) 22:40, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

I do feel that the article is fairly well balanced, but I have changed the wording where it states the Company's history is fictitious to read as in dispute, as it didn't seem prudent to use a term with such finality as fictitious implies, when there is clearly a dispute about the origin of the sauce, per WP:WIKIVOICE this shouldn't be stated with such finality in Wikipedia's voice. Regards,  Spintendo  02:22, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Inappropriate Promotion of Product?

I don't think the below line is appropriate for Wikipedia. It is promotional, in my opinion, and there is already a link to TABASCO.com in the article.

"Tabasco sauce is appreciated greatly by the U.S. military. To obtain more information about Tabasco's military sales or to contact the McIllhenny Company military sales director visit the Tabasco home page at TABASCO.com."

Any comments?

--Skb8721 15:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, the rest of that section handles the relationship to the US military much better. -- Solipsist 09:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Most of Section 2 actually reads like shameless promotional material.

94.192.128.173 (talk) 20:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

The entire article is just an "ad" for Tabasco. Welcome to Wikipedia. 73.6.96.168 (talk) 08:57, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Scoville Rating

The text mentions that Tabasco original is "2,500–5,000 SCU" while the HEAT infobox shows "3,500-8,000". Two questions:
1) Why is there such a large range in the text? I understand that the spiciness may fluctuate somewhat by batch, but a range of 2,500 SCU seems excessive. Is there some reason that the range needs to be so large?
2) Probably this is just a reflection of how the infobox is created, but can we get the two numbers ("2500-5000" & "3500-8000") to agree more? -Sarfa (talk) 11:36, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

• The product's Web site states that the Scoville rating for its classic red Tabasco sauce is "2500-5000." This may be a function of the various places in which the company grows its peppers (Central and South America, even Africa, as well as Louisiana), which might make it difficult to produce a sauce that is consistently the same Scoville number. --Skb8721 (talk) 20:24, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

• • It's difficult for ANY producer of "hot sauce" to consistently produce a product of the same amount of "heat". It's impossible, in fact. All they can do is monitor and try to reproduce. But it's not possible to keep the heat at an exact amount, year after year. That seems obvious. 73.6.96.168 (talk) 09:02, 11 April 2021 (UTC)