Talk:Szybka Kolej Miejska (Tricity)

GA review

An intiative was launched by a group of users involved in the development of the Good Articles project with the goal to ensure that all Good Articles are held to a high standard, and that all current Good Articles conform with the current quality criteria. This review has the aim to establish how well this article complies with them. They will be listed in italics, one by one, and review comments will be put below in normal type.

1. It is well written. In this respect:

(a) it has compelling prose, and is readily comprehensible to non-specialist readers;

Oh my, where do I start.... First of all, my English is quite far from perfect, but the attempts at English here are really poor - no offence intended, it's just that this somehow got through the GA criteria and this is obviously quite a basic requirement. I've had trouble understanding the article at times (and I am Polish, so I guess I am able to understand a bit more of the peculiar English in this article), not to mention staying focused. As a result, many sections contain statements that are ambigious or apparently have a different meaning than intended. Moreover, some sections are written from a very "Polish" perspective, for example the relationship between a mysterious "Marshalls Office" (not linked, btw) and specific services is not explained. Overall, this article totally fails on all aspects of this criterion.

Oh, and the article even actually manages to contradict itself - in the body it is stated that the management board consists of two people, while the infobox lists three bord members. The article also states the English name of the company as Urban Fast Train, while the PKP site itself describes it as PKP Fast Regional Rail in Tri-City, Ltd., which I believe is a better representation of the name in English anyway.

(b) it follows a logical structure, introducing the topic and then grouping together its coverage of related aspects; where appropriate, it contains a succinct lead section summarising the topic, and the remaining text is organised into a system of hierarchical sections (particularly for longer articles);

Structure design is generally OK and logical, but the application is a bit dodgy, with sections wallowing from topic to topic and from overview to minutiae. For example, there is a bit of a mix-up concerning the EMUs - first there is a brief description of the present-day stock, and then suddenly the S-Bahn consists are mentioned, only to return with a better description of their origin in the history section. Such hybrid topical/temporal structure is hybrid to maintain, so I would recommend reconsidering it for the sake of increased clarity, especially once the content is improved.

The lead is much better written than the rest of the article, but it fails to summarize the origins and history of the SKM.

(c) it follows the Wikipedia Manual of Style including the list guideline:

I am not an expert on that, and there are other, more important issues here, so excuse me for not reviewing the article thoroughly for that. I don't know whether it goes here, but the article contains some speculation (e.g. as to whether Mr. Segień would return to the company), and there are quite many statements refering to "present situation", containing words like "recently" or "now", which, even if not trivial, are imprecise - one should simply state when a given piece of information was valid.

(d) necessary technical terms or jargon are briefly explained in the article itself, or an active link is provided.

The problem is not that much with technical terms, which seem pretty well explained or linked to (I know some railway terminology, so I might not be the best person to judge that), but with the terminology and descriptions referring to Polish realities. The said "Marshalls Office" is a good example, and several other sections are not even comprehensible to me - I still don't know what the issue with the new board members and their relationship to Przewozy Regionalne actually is. It is also not clear what gives about the Gdańsk-Nowy Port - was it an extension that diverted from the otherwise in-line station alignment? Another example - what Rzeczpospolita 100 list is being meant? I am familiar with the Rzeczpospolita 500/1000/2500 list of the largest companies in Poland by turnover (quite unlike most non-Polish readers, I guess), but I have no idea what was the base for that ranking.

On second reading - the concepts of management board and supervisory board are neither explained nor linked to, so a reader unfamiliar with the Polish corporate law (or, in general, the continental company management concept) might not understand that fragment.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect:

(a) it provides references to any and all sources used for its material;

Discussed below.

(b) the citation of its sources using inline citations is required;

The sources listed might be sufficient to serve as references for the entire article, but the article really needs to use inline references extensively, as it refers both to history and current events, both of which can be controversial and are quite prone to generate OR. There is also no source mentioned for the data used in the graph.

(c) sources should be selected in accordance with the guidelines for reliable sources;

Those that are present seem OK to me.

(d) it contains no elements of original research.

It is not apparent at the moment with the article's linguistic deficiencies and lack of inline references, but I guess the way it is written, especially when it suddenly breaks into detail, suggests there might be some OR there. I guess meticulous referencing can relieve that.

3. It is broad in its coverage. In this respect :

(a) it addresses all major aspects of the topic (this requirement is slightly weaker than the "comprehensiveness" required by WP:FAC, and allows shorter articles and broad overviews of large topics to be listed);

I have no major concerns here, though some information is just dumped there without proper context.

(b) it stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary details (no non-notable trivia).

The article breaks into trivial level of detail when describing the current situation, e.g. regarding the management changes or the discovery of the old S-Bahn train. Some information, such as ticket prices, is quite irrelevant to the reader and can become outdated very quickly.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy. In this respect:

(a) viewpoints are represented fairly and without bias;

The article claims that the SKM is "one of the best developed" PKP companies, which is not only not referenced, but also not clear as to what it actually means. Moreover, the common ticket problem is referred to as "one of most urgent and difficult", which is also quite POV.

(b) all significant points of view are fairly presented, but not asserted, particularly where there are or have been conflicting views on the topic.

The fragment about building new tracks might suggest that it was a bad decision to build new tracks - if so, then opposing points of view should be presented, as well as pros and cons for all proposed solutions. I would also be a bit concerned about the statement that "is not obvious why this line (Wrzeszcz-Kartuzy) was not electrified" - seems like the author is convinced that it should have been, but does not expand on that.

5. It is stable, i.e. it does not change significantly from day to day and is not the subject of ongoing edit wars. This does not apply to vandalism and protection or semi-protection as a result of vandalism, or proposals to split/merge the article content.

No edits to the article since August 11th and no discussion in talk page, which indicates that there is rather too little than too much editorial activity.

6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic. In this respect:

(a) the images are tagged and have succinct and descriptive captions;

Image:NewticketSKM.jpg claims CC, but there is no direct link to any statement that would support that claim, while it is stated that the image is taken from SKM's official site. Same with Image:Skm001.gif, Image:Skm002.jpg and Image:Pkp-skm-poroz.jpg (release all rights claimed). I am also not sure how can one scan an "informational table as placed on SKM stops". It is also a 100% representation of copyright work, so GFDL as such is not applicable.

(b) a lack of images does not in itself prevent an article from achieving Good Article status.

That said, the article is quite well-illustrated, even though a few nicer photos and a map (like in other railway system related articles) of the line would be nice.

Overall, the article fails to comply with almost all of the current WIAGA criteria, and I even seriously doubt it whether it ever complied with any version of the WIAGA. There are quite a few solid Good Articles on regional rail/rapid transit systems, which can serve as benchmarks here, and which this article fares poorly against. Overall, the article obviously needs to be delisted.

Trying not to be rude, I must say the language is the major problem here, so I would recommend a major rewrite of the entire article. There are a few users active in the Polish Wikipedian's Notice Board whose command of English is really superb, and who are really good, meticulous editors, so perhaps the editors wanting to upgrade the article to the true GA status could ask for help there. Bravada, talk - 23:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Skm2002.gif

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Edit on 10 January 2015

I have made changes in various sections of the article. This does not exhaust the list of changes which could be made. In some places, the grammar still needs correction, the text is still unclear. Any comments of corrections?Prospero10 (talk) 17:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Edits on 15th January 2015 Onwards

I have made changes in various sections of the article., I am hoping to improve the article quality over the next few days / weeks. And hopefully push for good article status. I hope to finish my route diagram Template: SKM (Tricity) If you wish to contact me about corrections or wish to make a comment please do not hesitate. Derr9467 (talk) 20:11, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I have been trying to edit for grammar, and have been noticing there is a lack of recent information in many sections. However, I don't speak Polish and am having trouble finding information. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks Happysquirrel (talk) 15:24, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Correction Needed

Hello Derr9467:

Regarding the Pomorska Kolej Metropolitalna, since the line is not electrified, the rolling stock cannot be Pesa Elf Electric multiple units as the current edit says. In fact, in the two references from 'Rynek Kolejowy' which I have inserted in the Pomorska Kolej Metropolitalna article they are identified as Diesel multiple units. I have made the correction.Prospero10 (talk) 03:15, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

References

Clarification needed

I am trying to clean up some grammar and flow, I tried to improve the Ticket subsection and this sentence completely baffled me: After improving strict SKM tickets the layout took a light blue colour, also with a white stripe. I am certainly missing something obvious, but I don't understand what a strict SKM ticket and how one improves them. Could someone please clarify? Thanks! Happysquirrel (talk) 14:59, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Hello Happysquirrel: This is probably another example of a Polish writer struggling to translate Polish into English. By 'strict SKM tickets' he probably meant 'tickets with validity RESTRICTED to SKM,' so that the sentence could be re-formulated as 'Tickets for use only on the SKM were upgraded (UPGRADED instead of IMPROVED) to a layout with a light blue color with a white stripe......."

Does that make sense?

You are not the only editor struggling with Polish text erratically translated into English. When I rewrote the 'History' section of Szybka Kolej Miejska on 2 February 2015, I found the existing text incomprehensible and chaotic, and only managed to rewrite it when I realized that the previous writer had lifted it from a long and detailed account with title Nasza Historia ('Our History') on the SKM website, translated into badly broken English. The Polish account made sense, and I used it as a source.

(English has been taught in Polish schools as the leading 2nd language only since 1990, when the 'Communist' regime collapsed. Previously, Russian was the compulsory second language in Polish schools, and that is what the previous generation studied - their English is weak).Prospero10 (talk) 17:53, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

New question: In the subsection Tensions in SKM Management, it says the PKP put two people. Where were they put? Perhaps it should be specified. Thanks! Happysquirrel (talk) 21:33, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Clarification

Hello, Happysquirrel: Re Tensions in SKM Management, Clarification needed, I suspect that the missing words (for where the two men were put) should be "in their places," namely in place of the two people mentioned just before. With some other changes, the paragraph could be re-edited as follows:

After 2003 the key people in SKM were Mikołaj Segień (CEO) and Piotr Małolepszy (CFO). After they finished their terms PKP put Andrzej Osipów and Maciej Lignowski in their places. This move was strongly criticised by SKM employees and labor unions, which were afraid that SKM would be incorporated in PKP Przewozy Regionalne (one of the PKP Group companies, responsible for local railway services). PKP Przewozy Regionalne is widely known to be unprofitable and to have serious debt problems.

Does this provide the needed clarification? I have pasted this edit into the article. If you disagree, just click 'undo' on the 'View History' page.Prospero10 (talk) 17:31, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, that is much clearer! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Happysquirrel (talk • contribs) 19:34, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

References

Note on the Polish Language

The Polish language has no words analogous to 'the' and 'a' in English, and you can see the results in earlier Edits of Szybka Kolej Miejska where Polish writers unfamiliar with English have written English sentences omitting the necessary words 'the' or 'a', just as they would be omitted in Polish.Prospero10 (talk)

Again, Incorrect statement about PESA ELF EMUs running on Pomorska Kolej Metropolitalna

Once again, a recent edit says that testing on the Pomorska Kolej Metropolitalna will be conducted using Pesa ELF Electric multiple units, even though four lines higher it is clearly stated the line is not electrified. Since the line is not electrified, Pesa Elf Electric multiple units cannot operate on the PMK (see 'Correction Needed' above). In fact, in the two references ('Jutro umowa na pojazdy Pesy dla PKM,' rynek kolejowy 2014 09 01, http://www.rynek-kolejowy.pl/53762/jutro_umowa_na_pojazdy_pesy_dla_pkm.htm<) and ("Podpisano Umowę na dostawę taboru dla PKM,' Rynek Kolejowy 2014 09 02, http://www.rynek-kolejowy.pl/53785/podpisano_umowe_na_dostawe_taboru_dla_pkm.htm) from 'Rynek Kolejowy' which I have inserted in the Pomorska Kolej Metropolitalna article, they are identified as Diesel multiple units (spalinowe zespoły trakcyjne). I have made the correction.Prospero10 (talk) 15:35, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

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