Talk:Syrian Kurdistan/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

"The Kurdish Project" map

This map is currently in the article:[1] with the text: "Syrian Kurdistan as claimed by the Kurdish Project". Why is this map here? "The Kurdish Project" is a completely non-notable website and its views and opinions has no place in an encyclopedia. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:57, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

It's an example of how Syrian Kurdistan was (and is) sometimes used as a synonym for the AANES. Why do you say the KP is non-notable? Konli17 (talk) 20:00, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Its not a news agency or an academic document. Its a made up website by an "entrepreneur" guy with no authority in the subject:[2] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:30, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

But it does accurately show how Syrian Kurdistan was used as a synonym for the AANES. Konli17 (talk) 20:36, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Unreliable source = Does not belong in article.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:48, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

But this isn't a view or opinion. Konli17 (talk) 20:53, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The source "The Kurdish Project" doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Its non-notable. No one cares about this "entrepreneur" website, its like someones personal blog. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:53, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

All we're looking for from it is an example of someone referring to the AANES as Syrian or Western Kurdistan. It seems adequate for this purpose. Konli17 (talk) 13:01, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

If that someone is non-notable as is the case with "The Kurdish Project" then that it is not adequate for this purpose.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:50, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about that. Do you doubt that the AANES was/is sometimes referred to as Syrian/Western Kurdistan? Konli17 (talk) 15:23, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

My personal doubt is not important, what is important is that the "The Kurdish Project" website is not a reliable source and its content has no value. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:35, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I dispute that. Perhaps some fresh eyes on the topic would help. Konli17 (talk) 16:38, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Let me put it another way; I wouldn't regard the President of Turkey as a reliable source, but I'd have no problem with a quote from him being used as an example of how Turkish nationalists think about a certain topic. Konli17 (talk) 03:06, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

President of Turkey is a notable person, so having something he said and attribute it to him is notable and appropriate. Having content from "The Kurdish Project" website is not notable, its a nobody who opened his own personal website and you are trying to use content from it in an encyclopedia. I also see that you continued your edit warring. Please stop immediately and discuss changes at talkpage and do not edit until there is consensus. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:55, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Stop edit warring, discuss changes here, and don't make major changes until there's consensus. Konli17 (talk) 12:44, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Book on Syrian Kurds

In order to answer Paradise chronicle's repeated complaints and unfounded claims about "PhD scholar", the book "The Questions of Syria's Kurds: Reality, History, Mythologisation" is available for download here (in Arabic). The authors of the book (mentioned in Arabic on p10) are: Azmi Bishara, Mohammad Jamal Barout, Hamza al-Mustafa, and Hazem Nahar. The publisher is Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies. It is also available here on Amazon. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 19:28, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Great, thank you. Now at least we are able to find out what kind of authors have written this bookParadise Chronicle (talk) 08:44, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Rfc: Syrian Kurdistan's lead: is it universal or not

Syrian Kurdistan is a term used to refer to Kurdish inhabited areas of Syria. This designation is contested, so I would like interested editors to weigh in on the wording of the lead:

• A: Syrian Kurdistan or Western Kurdistan (Kurdish: Rojavayê Kurdistanê‎), often shortened to Rojava, is regarded by many Kurds and some regional experts as the part of Kurdistan in Syria.
• B: Syrian Kurdistan or Western Kurdistan (Kurdish: Rojavayê Kurdistanê‎), often shortened to Rojava, is the Syrian part of Kurdistan
• C: Syrian Kurdistan (Kurdish: Rojavayê Kurdistanê‎) is the Syrian part of Kurdistan

--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 23:45, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

— Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Thepharoah17 (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion.

Support A

• By Attar: There are no historical records that includes the Kurdish inhabited regions of Syria within historical Kurdistan before the establishment of Syria. As it is shown in the article, the idea that there is a Kurdistan in Syria is rather recent, opposed by the rest of Syria, has no international backing or recognition, and is far from universal. It is against the NPOV policy to hide those facts and give one side of the story.
  - Some sources on the issue: the book of Wladimir van Wilgenburg: in it, we see this: For ease of explanation, the term 'Kurdish areas' or 'northern Syria' is used to refer to the areas of northern Syria where Kurds are concentrated. Its use does not imply any politically motivated judgement on the ethnic or political character of the regions nor does it imply that these areas are homogenous ethnically. 1
  - Another source, this time by a scholar who totally support Syrian Kurdistan, Robert Lowe "The Emergence of Western Kurdistan and the Future of Syria" in D. Romano et al. (eds.), Conflict, Democratization, and the Kurds in the Middle East (2014), has the following:
  1- Western Kurdistan was previously a vague concept rarely used by most Kurds (page 225)
  2-Until 2012, the Kurdish national movement in Syria had barely flirted with the idea of devolved or autonomous government for Kurdish areas. The concept of Syrian Kurdistan or Western Kurdistan received very little attention. Even the term was rarely used and then mostly only by the PYD and some more radical nationalist groups operating from abroad. (page 236). So here you see that the term is not taken for granted, its new, not universal, and not a undisputed fact that can be presented as such in Wikipedia in accordance with the NPOV policy.
  3- In general, Syrian Sunni Arabs are deeply opposed to Western Kurdistan and any form of devolution or federation in Syria. The Kurds are unclear and disunited on the issue. (page 240). So here we have it: the rest of Syria contests the existence of such entity, this, combined with the lack of international recognition, and the fact that the majority of international media do not use the term Kurdistan to designate the regions of Syria, and use only Syria or North Syria or Kurdish inhabited regions, makes it deeply POV pushing not to represent the opposition in the lead--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 23:45, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
• Amr ibn Kulthoum. Thanks Sixula for opening this. Although I thought we already had this discussion before (see above), this new discussion will hopefully make things clear. We have a ton of evidence presented throughout the article and the Talk page that this is a term used/invented by Kurds (including the monographs mentioned above by paradise. If others exist, they would be the marginal minority. Thanks, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 06:11, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

BTW, the version that was the closest to a consensus was the one by Applodion here, before Paradise chronicle and konli started all the sabotage and mass content removal/addition in the last 48 hours. Can someone revert to that version waiting for this vote? @Sixula:. Thanks, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 06:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@عمرو بن كلثوم: at present we shouldn't revert it all the way back because there is information that is actually good that has been added from the new eyes at this article. What we can do once this vote is finished is edit the article to reflect the consensus while maintaining the new information. Thanks, Sixula^Talk 14:04, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

But this is unfair, because I have restrained from editing while Konli removed half the article and placed it with their irrelevant POV content and paradise kept adding material and moving things around as they please. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 18:06, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@عمرو بن كلثوم: they shouldn't be editing either during this RfC. Thanks, Sixula^Talk 14:01, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Dont lie, Amr. Konli17 (talk) 14:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I hope people will start listening to your advice, Sixula. I'll change it back. Konli17 (talk) 21:35, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Konli, Why don't you start by yourself and stop the edit-warring? Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 23:50, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes, like Sixula said, we'll restore the clean-up and have a halt to edit-warring while we iron everything out. Konli17 (talk) 01:42, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support A per Attar. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:30, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
• It should be ""Syrian Kurdistan" or "Western Kurdistan" (Kurdish: Rojavayê Kurdistanê‎), often shortened to "Rojava" are disputed terms regarded by some Kurds as the part of "Kurdistan" in northern Syria" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:22, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support A per Attar. --Thepharoah17 (talk) 21:05, 15 November 2020 (UTC) — Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Thepharoah17 (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion.

My friend, this RfC was was started on 12 November while the message you are referring to was left on 8 November. User Thepharoah has been active here long before my message to them. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:07, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

عمرو بن كلثوم, yes, I saw that on the user talk page. Thank you for clarifying that, as I was about to check if this was the case, before I saw your reply. Regardless, I think this is still technically canvassing, even if it's not doing so for the purpose of an RfC. Whoever the closer is, they'll presumably be able to weigh all of this appropriately. Apologies, thepharoah17, for doing this at all. Just don't want to run afoul of policy here. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 04:16, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support A. of the three options, A is the most accurate. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:38, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Support C

• Paradise Chronicle

Syrian Kurdistan is an established term to refer to the subject in the article and is a complementary article to the existing articles of Iranian Kurdistan, Iraqi Kurdistan and Turkish Kurdistan. That Kurdistan spans over Syria is also presented as a fact in the Encyclopedia Britannica. There are also numerous maps of which some are included in the sources of the article, where there is depicted a Syrian part of a larger Kurdistan which spans over Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey. The article is not about a recognized political entity but a geo-cultural region. This region is pretty well described in numerous high quality (according to WP:verifiability and WP:notability standards) sources and even the authors (Lowe and van Wilgenburg) of the sources brought for the bringing into doubt the existence of a Syrian Kurdistan speak of Kurds in Syria living there since centuries. Discussions about the political status of Syrian Kurdistan could be described in a specific section. Kurds and Kurdistan have gone through a long history of denial in the the countries Syria, Turkey and Iraq and this denial should not be supported on Wikipedia by mentioning that only by Kurds and "some" regional experts it is known as Syrian Kurdistan. Further arguments and numerous additional sources for Syrian Kurdistan can be read at Discussions.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 10:25, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

-I've framed this RfC based on what I typically see an RfC look like. If you guys aren't ok with it then no problem, just frame it however you'd like. Thanks, Sixula^Talk 00:02, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Looks great. Hope you participate.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 00:03, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@Attar-Aram syria: hahaha, I don't think so; I have no knowledge in this area and don't feel it would be appropriate for me to comment. But for all of you participating (especially in the discusion) remember to be civil! Thanks, Sixula^Talk 00:05, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

-I have opened two Noticeboard discussions, one at the RSN and one at the NPOVN, adverted of both discussion at the Syrian Kurdistan talk page and Attam Aram Syria didn't take part in one of them. Now he should just accept about 20 mostly academic and reliable sources (a very few are from Reuters etc. and not academic) over his personal view that there doesn't exist and hasn't existed a Syrian Kurdistan. There is no reliable source which denies an existence of Kurds in present day Syria in regions adjacent to the the others commonly accepted cultural region of Kurdistan. If there exists one, we'll be pleased to read it. Here a some sources provided by GPinkerton at the NPOV noticeboard which are about a Syrian Kurdistan.

• In the Dispersion. World Zionist Organization, Organization Department, Research Section. 1962.
• Ghassemlou, Abdul Rahman (1965). Kurdistan and the Kurds. Publishing House of the Czechoslovak Academy of Sciences.
• Chaliand, Gérard, ed. (1993) [1978]. Les Kurdes et le Kurdistan [A People Without a Country: The Kurds and Kurdistan]. Translated by Pallis, Michael. London: Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-85649-194-5.
• Bruinessen, Martin van (1978). Agha, Shaikh and State: On the Social and Political Organization of Kurdistan. University of Utrecht.
• Gotlieb, Yosef (1982). Self-determination in the Middle East. Praeger. ISBN 978-0-03-062408-7.
• Bruinessen, Martin Van (1992). Agha, Shaikh, and State: The Social and Political Structures of Kurdistan. London: Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-85649-018-4.
• Izady, Mehrdad R. (1992). The Kurds: A Concise Handbook. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-0-8448-1727-9.
• Kreyenbroek, Philip G.; Allison, Christine (1996). Kurdish Culture and Identity. London: Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-85649-329-1.
• Bulloch, John; Morris, Harvey (1992). No Friends But the Mountains: The Tragic History of the Kurds. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-508075-9.
• Mirawdeli, Kamal M. (1993). Kurdistan: Toward a Cultural-historical Definition. Badlisy Center for Kurdish Studies.
• Jaff, Akram (1993). Economic Development in Kurdistan. Badlisy Center for Kurdish Studies.
• Gotlieb, Yosef (1995). Development, Environment, and Global Dysfunction: Toward Sustainable Recovery. Delray Beach, FL: St Lucie Press. ISBN 978-1-57444-012-6.
• Meho, Lokman I., ed. (1997). The Kurds and Kurdistan: A Selective and Annotated Bibliography. Westport, CN and London: Greewood Press. ISBN 978-0-313-30397-5.
• Berberoglu, Berch (1999). Turmoil in the Middle East: Imperialism, War, and Political Instability. SUNY Press. ISBN 978-0-7914-4412-2.

Others, which are already presented in the article are: Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:06, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

This isnt about me. Anyway, Kurds in Syria and Kurdistan in Syria are two different things. Please provide qoutes and pages numbers for those sources so that editors can see what is actually mentioned. Please also note that non of these sources provide a historical record for the inclusion of Syrian areas within historical Kurdistan before the establishemnt of Syria--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 00:08, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I have added several additional sources for a Syrian Kurdistan and maps of a full Kurdistan overlaying the current borders of Syria, Iraq, Turkey and Iran (with pagenumbers). Turkish Kurdistan, Iraqi Kurdistan, Iranian Kurdistan and Syrian Kurdistan really exist. It is not about a recognized political entity named Kurdistan, but a region where Kurds lived and live since centuries. Also see the etymology section of Kurdistan or -stan Paradise Chronicle (talk) 02:36, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

As I mentioned before PC and konli have hijacked the article, removed all context and background in a pathetic effort to hide the history of the area. Instead, they cherry-picked new stories that suit their narrative. This page will need to go back to Applodion's version (on what I have many reservations) here before all the sabotage the two of you have done to the page. As for insisting on making a big deal out of the PhD thing, it seems you don't know anything about peer-reviewed research, which is about the quality the manuscript presented, not the degree the author has. We have presented a ton of evidence above (throughout the talk page) and in the article that show this is an invention of PKK/PYD and its affiliates. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 07:34, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Withdraw my vote for vote B, as the RfC doesn't cover the whole conflict. The main conflict was the existence of a Syrian Kurdistan, which was also debated in the discussions. Western Kurdistan can be included later in discussion of the term or in an etymology section. Option C could be: Syrian Kurdistan (Kurdish: Rojavayê Kurdistanê‎), is the part of Kurdistan in Syria. Maybe there would be an Option D as well.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 14:23, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Then add option C with your prefered wording, but stop editing this contested article before you get a consensus.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 14:33, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@Paradise Chronicle: typically people give a reason to support in the vote, not the discussion. Thanks, Sixula^Talk 00:44, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Is West Kurdistan the same as Syrian Kurdistan

The info. GPinkerton just added clearly shows that western Kurdistan is not necessarily in Syria, rather refers to the part of Kurdistan in Turkey, bordering Iran and including Diyarbakır. I quote from their edit: The late 19th-century Chambers's Encyclopaedia referred to "west Kurdistan" as bordering Iran in its entry on that country.[18] A German gymnasium text book from Sorau (modern Żary) describes Diyarbakır as being "on the upper Tigris, in West Kurdistan". Thanks @GPinkerton: for the valuable addition. That removes a lot of confusion. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 06:14, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Real Kurdistan is in northern Iran, so Western Kurdistan is in western northern Iran. Any use of "Western Kurdistan" for an area in Syria is falsification of history and reality. The info GPinkerton added further proves the so called "Western Kurdistan/Syrian Kurdistan" hoax. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:41, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

You need to give up this propagandistic claptrap, it's not fooling anyone. It demonstrably false. GPinkerton (talk) 09:08, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Come on GPinkerton, please read your own input and look at a map! There is no border b/w Syria and Iran, which are separated by Turkey or Iraq. Diyarbakir is not currently in Syria or even close to the border. How do you make sense of that? Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 16:28, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

My thought exactly. They are edit warring and opening complaints and they don't even know what they are adding to the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:44, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Dear Amr Ibn. JStor is for free to read, just become a member. The map is perfectly depicting the Kurdish tribes in present day Syria/formerly a part of the Ottoman Empire. Each number on the map represents a Kurdish tribe. And it was Attar Aram who wanted Western Kurdistan included in the RfC. Parts of the text can be included in the etymology section.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:33, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Inaccurate historically false terminology

GPinkerton has introduced a large amount of inaccurate and historically false terminology into the article. "and Syria was thereafter fixed, with the Syrian part of Kurdistan consisting of discontinuous" "and his brother Kamuran Alî Bedirxan and became widespread in Syrian Kurdistan," " Syrian Kurdistan appeared alongside Persian " "discontinuous areas Kurdish-inhabited areas on the Syria–Turkey border constitute Syrian Kurdistan," "All of Syrian Kurdistan, including the cities of" "The lowlands of Syrian Kurdistan is productive arable farmland"... these sentences suggests that there is a Syrian part of so called "Kurdistan" or that there actually exists a so called "Syrian Kurdistan" and that this is a real historical location. All of this false and imaginary terminology must be removed from the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:37, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, you really have to end this denial of Syrian Kurdistan for once. You can't produce a single reliable source that denies the existence of Kurds in Syria, which is what would be needed for a denial of a Syrian Kurdistan. I suggest, and not the first time, the editors who deny a Syrian Kurdistan go to check what Kurdistan means at [[Kurdistan#Etymology] and -stan#Regions There many more -stans for other people.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:59, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not denying kurds in Syria. I am denying the existence of "Syrian Kurdistan" as a factual place. "Syrian Kurdistan" only exists as a thought, as an idea or as a believe by some people. Nothing more. The terminology introduced by GPinkerton straight out says that its a real place and that it existed in history. This is not acceptable. Its a complete denial of reality and documented history. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:02, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

It is a real place, reliable sources say so, and if you choose to continue to insist on the opposite in the face of all evidence and logic, it will only become the clearer that it is really your absurd and ahistorical claims that are confected "idea or as a believe by some people. Nothing more.". I suggest you drop your crusade to force your strange ideology on the encyclopaedia. Your beliefs have been shown to be in conflict with reality, and yet you persist in denialism. GPinkerton (talk) 08:06, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

GPinkerton, You added to the article "By the time of the Treaty of Lausanne after the Turkish War of Independence, no such state had been set up, and besides the changed status of French Hatay State to Turkish Hatay Province, the border between Turkey and Syria was thereafter fixed, with the Syrian part of Kurdistan consisting of discontinuous areas in the extreme north and northeast of first the State of Aleppo and then the First Syrian Republic, whose borders are largely coterminous with the modern Syrian Arab Republic, and which succeeded the short-lived State of Syria and Syrian Federation."... you are claiming that during the French Mandate there was a place in Syria with the name "Kurdistan". You can not show one single historical source of such a thing. This is straight falsification of history. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:19, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

What you imagine to be possible or otherwise is of decreasingly little interest to me and betrays an increasingly wide estrangement from reality on your part. It certainly has no bearing on the content of the article. GPinkerton (talk) 10:01, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Nationalism is a hell of a drug. Konli17 (talk) 10:03, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

If you can not show sources from 1920s talking about "Syrian Kurdistan", then there is no other option but to remove the historical falsifications you added from the article.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:22, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Open your eyes and unblind yourself before you open your mouth. Evidence is ample and in plain view, and your petulant desire to ignore it and attack others for their sightedness is really just your being upset that your transparent ploy to interlard the encyclopaedia with fringe ethno-nationalism has been discovered and will be excised root and stem. GPinkerton (talk) 11:02, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Mehrdad Izady

I see that material cited to the Kurdish nationalist professor Mehrdad Izady is being added. Now, if this will be the case, we will also use Arab natioanlists scholars here, or Izady needs to go. the user who wrote the last expansion used Izady to expalin about how the climate in Afrin is similar to that in Iranian Kurdistan! as if Idlib is different!! It meant to give the impression that we have a huge distinctive Kurdistan where Qamishli is more related to Iran than it is to Tel Abyad!. I will now give academic sources regarding Izady's style when it comes to Kurdish matter (note, he is not a bad scholar, just when it comes to Kurds, he is partisan):

• First, start with reading the book review: V. Strohmeyer. Review [M. Izadi, The Kurds: A Concise Handbook, London: "Taylor&Francis", 1992], Acta Kurdica, vol. 1 (19994): 221-222. Published by RoutledgeCurzon
• Second: from the book: Trapped Between the Map and Reality: Geography and Perceptions of Kurdistan, by Maria Theresa O'Shea, published by Taylor & Francis:

1-Page 181: "Much of the rest of Dr. Izady’s book is well written, dealing exhaustively with many hitherto unexplored aspects of the Kurds and Kurdistan. However, certain sections, such as that on ancient history are subject to seriously flawed reasoning, and the lack of citation ensures that his own conclusions are presented as factual evidence. However, its wide range of coverage and accessible tone, combined with its affordability and accessibility ensured that it rapidly became a ‘bible’ for both Kurds and Kurdophiles."

2-Page 136: "For example, Izady claims that less than 60 percent of Kurds are Sunni Moslems, and attempts to diminish the role of Islam in Kurdish culture. He also attempts to link the several heterodox sects in a way that make them simply remnants of an original Kurdish religion, a religion that he implies is more ‘natural’ for Kurds than Islam.64 It is probably only in the former Soviet republics with a large number of Kurds, such as Georgia and Armenia, that the experience of being Kurdish is inherently bound up with Yezidism.65"

3-Page 134: "Izady has developed a theory of Kurdish language classification, which is markedly different to any other.Curiously, he asserts that this classification is accepted by all educated Kurds, whereas, I have not seen or heard any other reference to Pahlawani, nor heard Kurmanji in general referred to as Badinani.53"

4-Page 132: "As described in chapter 6, more fantastic claims of Kurdish history have recently been advanced. An excellent example of this trend exists in Izady’s recent account, where a speculative account of Kurdish history from 10,000 BC onwards is given as if factual. Except in Izady’s work, narrative usually skips from Xenephon to Marco Polo to the nineteenth century European travellers,40"

5-Page 60: "Thus there is a shift away from the purely philological argument to the territorial argument whereby, as for Izady, any past inhabitant of present day Greater Kurdistan was Kurdish."

6-Page 59: "Even during the classical period, for which there are more sources, Izady continues his flawed axioms. A fundamental problem in Izady’s reasoning is that he confuses the Kurds with Kurdistan."

7-Page 59: "Although Izady’s thesis is so fundamentally flawed, the overall theme is likely to become an inherent part of the Kurdish mythology. Indeed, many articles and works now refer to Izady as an authority on Kurdish history"

8-Page 60: "Citing Izady’s work offers an alternative to charges of orientalism, lends a pseudo-academic tone to writings, and can be used to justify almost any Kurdish nationalist myths."

9-Page 58: "The culmination of attempts to establish an unbroken chain of Kurdish historical presence in Kurdistan, as well as a glorious history is reached in one of the most outstanding, as well as astonishing, attempts to create a complete Kurdish history by using a combination of remembered, recovered, invented and borrowed history,18 that of Mehrdad Izady, a Kurdish scholar from the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations at Harvard University"

10-Page 59: "He traces the existence of Kurdish culture back more than 50,000 years, to include the Neanderthal findings in the Shanidar caves.20 His thesis is the astounding claim that, ‘I treat as Kurdish every community that has ever inhabited the territory of Kurdistan and has not acquired a separate identity to this day, or been unequivocally connected with another identifiable nation, the bulk of which is or was living outside the territories of Kurdistan. This is consistent with what is accepted by consensus for the identification of the ancient Egyptians or Greeks, and the relationship they have to modern Egyptians and Greeks.’21 Using this thesis, as well as judicious extension of the boundaries of Kurdistan, Kurds can claim credit for the Neolithic revolution;22 the invention of agriculture (prior to Mesopotamia); the domestication of animals; the invention of material technologies, such as pottery, metalwork and textiles; cuneiform writing; urban communities, until Kurdistan was overshadowed by Mesopotamia. According to Izady, although unsourced and elsewhere not mentioned, in the 3rd millennium BC the Qutils established a unified kingdom and were the only Zagros group to conquer part of Mesopotamia, namely Akkadia and Sumer, which they ruled for 170 years.23"

• Third: Turkey's Alevi Enigma. The article: A Comprehensive Overview- The Debate on the Identity of 'Alevi Kurds', by Paul J. White, published by Brill:

1- Page 22, where it is commented on Izady's attempt to claim that Dailamites are Kurds: "Quite a different view is propounded by the noted Kurdish scholar Mehrdad Izady , who states that the Dailamite expansion ended in Dailam. Izady, who is otherwise a scholar of considrable merit, is not able to present any proof for this astonishing assertion , or even to cite a similar view by earlier scholars . Izady's view must therefore be considered as so far unproven"

Now, I hope this is clear. I have no wish of long discussions, either delete Izady, or I bring Arab nationalists scholars here and you have to accept them like you want us to accept Izady.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 10:10, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

You are right. User:GPinkerton has crossed a line. She is inserting falsehoods into wikiepdia.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:19, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Nonsense. None of these claims are relevant here, and neither is this wall of text. No-one is going to let you openly push Arab nationalism, you can stop trying to claim neutral facts are Kurdish nationalist conspiracy. No-one believes this frantic pearl-clutching by the the Arab nationalists themselves. GPinkerton (talk) 10:59, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

You seem to not get whats happening here. Stop your shitty behavior, and stop giving us judgements. The only nonsense is what you are doing here. I will revert you now, and you better stick to discussing on the talk page before inserting your none sense into this contested article. Izady is a nationalist, and you will not be allowed to use it.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 11:05, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

So you disagree about the weather? The only shitty behaviour here is this collective effort to push lunatic fringe view that a whole region sprung up out of the earth as the result of long-invalidated treaty. Quit it. GPinkerton (talk) 11:07, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Listen here and calm you stubborn head. Izady is a Kurdish nationalist: DO NOT USE IT. Period. No on will use Arab nationalists, but so Kurdish nationalists will be treated. This rude behavior of yours has been tolerated and I dont know why. Who tf are you to tell people that what they write is non-sense and personally attack every user you diagree with? Stop this battleground mentality, and understand that you need to learn some manners of discussion, and actually discuss.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 11:12, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

The Arab nationalist POV has had a chokehold on this page for far too long. Konli17 (talk) 11:15, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

No, discussion with you people is clearly impossible if you refuse to accept that Syrian Kurdistan exists and is not invented for the purposes of offending your or your co-nationalists. Neither is this your personal page to scrawl delusional conspiracy theories on. GPinkerton (talk) 11:17, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

No Konli, it hasent. All what you were asked to present is evidence that these Syrian regions were subsumed under Kurdistan before the establishment of Syria, and you failed, while that GPinkerton managed finally to get us Haji Qadir Koyi's work, which is a good start. This still doesnt make you justified to overlook the opposition of this Kurdistan in Syria, who will be represented in the article, whether GPinkerton likes it or not. And GPinkerton: you will discuss whether you liked it or not. You will be forced to, and you will compromise, or you will be blocked like you already were several times.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 11:20, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

What is this "these Syrian regions were subsumed under Kurdistan before the establishment of Syria" babble got to do with anything? This is so illogical its hard to know where to begin in the refutation of its stupidity. Is this what this furious POV pushing is all about? You want to prove that because Syria is a colonial project dreamed up by the French it is a real and genuine place name, but because Kurdistan was not constructed into an artificial state without any prior history of its own by a foreign power less than a century ago "Syrian Kurdistan" is somehow less valid as a placename. What a hilariously narrow-minded approach! I expect it will be you who will be blocked, we don't maintain private spaces in this project to incubate pet theories about the how the world is trying to force the Syrians to accept the real world they live in. GPinkerton (talk) 11:30, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

How can someone be that thick! First of all: who are we? do not include yourself in any "we". Second: these regions, whether they were called Syria, or Mesopotamia, cannot be a Syrian Kurdistan unless you have evidence for it (as in they were part of Kurdistan before Syria or Turkey or whatever took them), so only provide that evidence and spare me your arguments. Third: do not use Kurdish nationalists like Izady.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 11:34, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

When I say "we", I mean the rational beings that are intended to use and improve the encyclopaedia, as opposed to those that merely lurk in groups, crafting silly and vicious conspiracy theories believable only to themselves and carefully and shamefully pushing a nationalist POV, such as may be found littering this very conversation …. There is evidence of this being a Syrian Kurdistan. You have not provided a shred of evidence to back your laughable claims and numerous failures of logic, and finding none, you will fail to do so. GPinkerton (talk) 11:48, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

You are delusional if you consider yourself part of that "we". I have provided enough evidence in the rfc that this region is disputed, which is the core of these long discussions, and you better provide such evidence too, and not count on logic, which you dont possess.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 11:50, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

You have provided nothing but your contorted claims and factual errors. You have nothing further to say here. GPinkerton (talk) 11:53, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

No, I have nothing further because I dont see anyone in this conversation aside from me and Konli with enough brain capacity to see what is going on. Now, refrain from using partisan sources, and behave yourself and learn some manners. You will be treated with respect once you show some.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 11:54, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

I have no need of what you imagine to be respect from yourself. You do, however, need to respect Wikipedia rules, and you and your pals have been so flagrantly breaching them in a systematic way it's amazing you can't hear the hypocrisy drip. GPinkerton (talk) 12:02, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I know you dont have such need. After all, it depends on your manners and the way you were raised. As I said, stick to reliable, neutral, sources. Do not force yourself on people, or their arguments, and speaking of wiki rules, start reading this Wikipedia:Civility--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 12:04, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Taking your uncalled for and hypocritical advice, I have removed the some of the more gross NPOV violations you have been cultivating here. GPinkerton (talk) 12:14, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

I dont wait for you to ask. This is what Wikipedia is, and you will be forced to respect it. P.S., I didnt insert what you deleted.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 12:15, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh OK, you just happen to be arguing along the same lines as the text supposedly claims. I guess its just myth that's become common among some. Still, doesn't make you any less exempt from WP:RS and so far your claims have gone wholly uncited and quite without foundation in logic. Next you'll be telling me there's no such thing as Ulster. GPinkerton (talk) 12:24, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

I havent add anything to this article, and I always stick to RS. Every claim I made was cited, and its not my problem that you are so blind to the point of considring anything you dont like: non-sense. Plz stop this discussion, I feel like Im talking to a wall. I tell you this region is contested, and I provide actual academic sources (in the rfc) with quotes and pages numbers, and you claim I didnt do that. Ulster has been mentioned for hundreds of years. These regions as part of Kurdistan, on the other had, havent. (Yea yea I saw your sources, and none prove that the designation Kurdistan applied to these regions before the establishment of Syria, aside from that Kurdish poet you finally found)--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 12:27, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Note: I will not reply further to this. The point I made is clear: Izady isnt to be used. Cheers.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 12:36, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Wrong again, and if you'd actually look at the source, instead of repeating the same old lies, you'd see that it nowhere supports your claims, and is in any case refuted by the existence of other sources the very existence of which demonstrates the ill-advisability of maintaining this outrageous and flagrant failure of logic. If a source claims a phrase is new, and that phrase is not new, and sources can be adduced to prove the source wrong, then it is futile to keep claiming that the erroneous source is somehow still free of error. Next you be saying the Syrian Arab Republic is contested fiction and a conspiracy by foreign powers, since no Republican Syrian Arabs could be found in Republican Syrian Arabia when the area was still Syrian Kurdistan. GPinkerton (talk) 13:05, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Fully protected

Due to the issues at theis page I have fully protected it for a month. Hopefully this will prompt discussion rather than edit-warring. Black Kite (talk) 12:33, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Big thanks.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 12:34, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Misc.

• Girth Summit, The main problem with the article right now was introduced by user GPinkerton here:[3], and the article right now is locked in the wrong version for a month (forced edit warring wins apparently), a version which has no consensus and they edit warred it into the article. So it first needs to be restored back to the previous version, before GPinkertons massive undiscussed pov changes. Then GPinkerton and others should use the talkpage with you as a moderator to ad more info to the article after consensus has been established. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

  Supreme Deliciousness, I have no intention of editing material I don't know anything about through full protection without a clear consensus that I do so, which will have to be arrived at by discussion. You have not explained what is wrong with this content, or why it should be reverted. You might want to start a different thread on that - this one is about the Demographic background section, it would be good to keep it focussed on that. GirthSummit _(blether) 17:46, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Welcome to my world GirthSummit, and thanks for taking on these empty complaints and personal attacks from Konli17. This user complains about the difference s between this article and Kurds in Syria article. Well that difference is in the scope. One talks about a specific part in northeastern Syria (this one) while the other one talks about Kurds that have lived in Damascus, Hama or Aleppo, sometimes for centuries. I would like to hear about the specific pieces of information they disagree with from an accuracy/reliability standpoint. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 20:07, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

عمرو بن كلثوم, I've asked that people stop commenting on each other, and start talking about content. Nothing in your post does that - it's entirely about another editor, with nothing about content. This process will not work unless we focus it propeprly. GirthSummit _(blether) 21:11, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi Girth Summit, thank you that you entering the discussion. What Supreme Deliciousness (SD) refers to is a good example of the conflict. SD removed 9000+ bytes for terminology, explaining at the talk page that it referred to Syrian Kurdistan, the name of the article. SD removed 9000+ sourced bytes for the words Syrian Kurdistan. We brought numerous academic sources for the existence of a Syrian Kurdistan. Just check the lead where Syrian Kurdistan is sourced with an WP:OVERKILL of more than 10 sources, which aren't even all I and GPinkerton have brought into the article and also the discussion. I the suggested SD looks up -stan#region where there are numerous -stans, like Kurdistan, Kabulistan, Turkistan, Uyghuristan, Tabaristan etc. All these -stans exist in the academic literature, but not one of these -stans has as many sources as Syrian Kurdistan. A Kurdistan (be it Syrian Kurdistan, Turkish Kurdistan, Iranian Kurdistan, or Iraqi Kurdistan is the common name in academic literature and sources for an area were the Kurds live in each of the countries Syria, Turkey, Iran and Iraq. SD literally denies the existence of a Syrian Kurdistan in this discussion in opposition to 10+ academic sources. Amr Ibn once only removed the academic sources, which were sourcing a Syrian Kurdistan. This edit might clarify Girth Summit a bit the discussion. There is a party which wants to edit according to the academic sources, and an other one which doesn't want the academic sources. WP:OR. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:23, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Academic sources? Like http://sahipkiran.org/ https://thekurdishproject.org/kurdistan-map/syrian-kurdistan/ and https://en.zamanalwsl.net/ ? Also, you can find academic sources using the term "Land of Israel" (between the Nile and the Euphrates), this doesn't mean we can say that "Palmyra is a city in the Land of Israel" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:45, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

This is typical. None of the sources SD brought forward are presently sourcing a Syrian Kurdistan. Having been confronted with a variety of reliable sources, SD just keeps on denying. I/We use Jordi Tejel, Michael Gunter, and Basil Nikitin, all well known and often cited authorities on the Kurds or the Encyclopedia Britannica and other scholars to source a Syrian Kurdistan.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 11:01, 23 November 2020 (UTC)22:16, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Supreme Deliciousness: I challenge you to provide a single academic source that meets WP:RS and states without qualification that Genesis 15 is literally true. I'll wait. GPinkerton (talk) 03:41, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

What we are debating here is the same as the RfC opened above by @Sixula:, and have developed three options to choose from/comment on. That is who uses the term Syrian Kurdistan. Here are some books that talk about Kurdistan but do not refer to a "Syrian Kurdistan":

• David McDowall, 1997. A Modern History of the Kurds
• Denise Natali, 2005. The Kurds and the State: Evolving National Identity in Iraq, Turkey, and Iran.
• Edgar O'Ballance, 2004. The Kurdish Struggle

Obviously, user Pinkerton found some references to "Syrian Kurdistan" in other books. If you look at the authors/publisher (Zionist agency, Izady, etc.) you'd wonder about the credibility of those authors. May be it's OK to use those and say some authors/people refer to some areas by this name, but it's not OK to say this is a fact that is not disputed. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:54, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

"Some other books" not only including Oxford University Press books, State University of New York Press books, edited volumes in Springer, all without exception using the term "Syrian Kurdistan" extensively. It is not disputed that the concept of Syrian Kurdistan exists and refers to a real place. Whether or not you imagine this constitutes a "fact" or "truth" in your view is really immaterial. The fact is that Syrian Kurdistan is verifiable and notable subject of encyclopaedic treatment, and is moreover the common English language name of the place referred to by that name. The RfC is malformed and does not contain the most straightforward and normal practice, which would be to use the words the way reliable sources and media do, and the way Wikipedia articles normal do, which is to define the meaning in the lead and continue using it thereafter. The idea that we should not use a term or put it in scare quotes because some authors writing tangentially potentially relevant books more than a decade ago chanced not to use the term is not ustainable. Maybe they had good reason for doing so. Maybe they thought it was wrong to characterize that part of Kurdistan as Syrian, who cares, the argument here is a specious argumentum ex silentio, which is nearly the oldest logical fallacy (not) in the book. As for Izady, the source is a an OUP-published volume which was used for a statement about the climate! Surely one can't be so obstinate as to argue against the weather. GPinkerton (talk) 06:37, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Here is an excerpt from Jordi Tejel (Tejel J. (2020) The Complex and Dynamic Relationship of Syria’s Kurds with Syrian Borders: Continuities and Changes. In: Cimino M. (eds) Syria: Borders, Boundaries, and the State. Mobility & Politics. Palgrave Macmillan, Cham.) that you and other pri-Kurdish editors love to cite here: Nevertheless, Kurdish political parties have never set out to challenge Syrian national borders. In the 1920s, Kurdish activists turned their eyes toward Turkish Kurdistan, their region of origin. As a result, Kurdish intellectuals did not even attempt to represent the boundaries of the Kurdish regions in Syria in the textbooks printed during the French Mandate. Between the 1970s and 1990s, Syrian Kurds took part in a proxy Kurdish struggle as guerrilla fighters or simply by supporting the PKK, KDP or PUK in Turkey and Iraq, respectively. Turkish and Iraqi Kurdish parties, on their side, helped make Kurdish enclaves in Syria even more marginal within the Kurdish nationalist discourse. One more: As a consequence, with the complicity of the Kurdish ‘clients’ (KDP, PUK and PKK), the Syrian regime steered Kurdish activists toward the ‘true Kurdistans,’ that is, Kurdish regions of Turkey and Iraq. Furthermore, Abdullah Öcalan, leader of the PKK, even declared that there was no ‘Kurdish problem’ in Syria; he denied the legitimacy of a Syrian Kurdish movement or dismissed it as a small-scale movement that distracted from the ‘real struggle’ for (Turkish) Kurdistan (McDowall 1998: 69–70). Although this type of statement can be easily understood in light of the pressure from the Syrian ‘boss,’ it nevertheless created discomfort in Syria resulting in the alienation of some PKK sympathizers after Öcalan’s speech. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 06:47, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

The words "Syrian Kurdistan" appear countless times throughout the book, in each case without scare quotes. All the quoted extracts prove is that the Kurds in Turkey and Iraq are 1.) much more numerous and thereby necessarily less important in any project to unify Kurdistan - marginal within the Kurdish nationalist discourse (NB not "non-existent"), and 2.) at the time less involved in active attempt to resist genocide in their respective countries (i.e. less persecuted in Syria than in Saddam's Iraq, the dictators' Turkey). This is clutching at straws. GPinkerton (talk) 06:56, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I'll zoom in for you: *"Kurdish activists turned their eyes toward Turkish Kurdistan, their region of origin"

• "Kurdish enclaves in Syria"
• "true Kurdistans, that is, Kurdish regions of Turkey and Iraq.

Kurdish-region, Kurdish-inhabited, Kurdish enclave, etc. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 07:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Also pay special attention to: "Kurdish activists turned their eyes toward Turkish Kurdistan, their region of origin". Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 08:02, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that proves your nonsense theory about how all Kurds in Syrian are immigrants? This is sheer incompetence. In English, the words "Kurdish enclaves in Syria" means "discontinuous territories that are Kurdish". This is precisely the meaning of the phrase "Syrian Kurdistan" that the author, and the other authors in the volume, all use to refer to the same three enclaves of Kurdish regions that were separated from the rest of Kurdistan by the imposition of borders after the First World War. You appear to be arguing that a discussion of the motivations and activities of activist refugees from Turkish Kurdistan in the late 20th century in an academic text is somehow stating as fact your odd faith that all Syrian Kurds are immigrants from Turkey. Kobane has been populated by Kurds settled in the Euphrates valley in the 18th century. The fact that the authors refer to Syrian Kurdistan as "Kurdish enclaves" that are both "Kurdish-inhabited" and constitute a "Kurdish-region" in the authors' reliable and academic peer-reviewed opinion. Syrian Kurdistan is tiny and it is no surprise to anyone that the swathes of Kurdish country outwith modern Syria were of greater import to the Kurdish nationalist cause. To suggest this means that no part of Syria has ever been considered in any way part of a Kurdistan is frankly severe misunderstanding, at best. GPinkerton (talk) 08:33, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Amr Ibn, could you please answer on topic? You should be able to read and see that we are not using the sources you claim we use but we use the sources that specifically mention a Syrian Kurdistan or depict a map which includes a Syrian Part adjacent to a Turkish Kurdistan and/or a Iraqi Kurdistan to source a Syrian Kurdistan. Then Kurd Dagh, (adjacent to Turkish Kurdistan) which is within present day Syria is an area where Kurds live since centuries. Not a single denier of a Syrian Kurdistan has answered to [[-stan#Regions] yet. They just kept on denying. I raise the argument again, Syrian Kurdistan refers to a region were Kurds live in. It is not an officially recognized country, but it is the name of a geo-cultural region where Kurds live in, and in which yes, a movement for independence or autonomy was active for a while and which can be confirmed in numerous academic sources. The very most sources who refer to a larger Kurdistan which has parts in. Syria, Iraq, Iran and Turkey. Some might focus on one part and leave an other one out, but if they really focus on the whole Kurdistan, thy usually have also a part of Syria included. You can either call it Kurdistan in Syria or Syrian Kurdistan, but since the sources usually use Syrian Kurdistan, we use it on Wikipedia as well as per WP:COMMONNAME. I will not list all the sources again and again and again, you or an admin need to read and watch them.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 11:38, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Paradise, I quote your statement above "I/We use Jordi Tejel, Michael Gunter, and Basil Nikitin, all well known and often cited authorities on the Kurds". 11:01, 23 November 2020

I provided excerpts from a Jordi Tejel chapter published in 2020. Your claim Kurd Dagh is adjacent to Turkish Kurdistan is a bluntly false or ignorant. Look at a map. Here is the CIA map. Kurds live in Germany, so there will be a German Kurdistan? Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 20:09, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

No part of Kurdistan is in Germany so, no, that is not happening. However, the part of Kurdistan that is in Syria is called Syrian Kurdistan, the subject of this article. Your attempt at distorting and misrepresenting the source is transparently tendentious, so you are still left without a single reliable source that backs your particular perspective. GPinkerton (talk) 20:14, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Tejel, Jordi (2020), Cimino, Matthieu (ed.), "The Complex and Dynamic Relationship of Syria's Kurds with Syrian Borders: Continuities and Changes", Syria: Borders, Boundaries, and the State, Mobility & Politics, Cham: Springer International Publishing, pp. 243–267, doi:10.1007/978-3-030-44877-6_11, ISBN 978-3-030-44877-6, retrieved 2020-11-21, Kurdish populations placed under the French Mandate occupied three narrow zones isolated from each other along the Turkish frontier: the Upper Jazira, Jarabulus, and Kurd Dagh. These three Kurdish enclaves constituted nevertheless a natural extension of Kurdish territory into Turkey and Iraq. The majority of Syrian Kurds spoke Kurmanji and were Sunni Muslims, ... GPinkerton (talk) 20:23, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Amr Ibn, that the Kurd Dagh is in a region adjacent to Turkish Kurdistan is what the sources say. Did the Kurds grow out of nowhere in the Kurd Dagh? Check the article about the Kurdish Emirate of Kilis which is an article about an emirate which span over some parts of present day North-west Syria where the Kurd Dagh is located. Has User:Girth Summit any questions he'd like to have clarified so far? We can continue to bring on 20s of sources more which source a Syrian Kurdistan.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:14, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Historical falsehoods (Mediation with admin Girth Summit)

Girth Summit, in this edit: [4] GPinkerton added:

• "By the time of the Treaty of Lausanne after the Turkish War of Independence, no such state had been set up, and besides the changed status of French Hatay State to Turkish Hatay Province, the border between Turkey and Syria was thereafter fixed, with the Syrian part of Kurdistan consisting of discontinuous areas in the extreme north and northeast of first the State of Aleppo and then the First Syrian Republic, whose borders are largely coterminous with the modern Syrian Arab Republic, and which succeeded the short-lived State of Syria and Syrian Federation."

• "During the 1920s, use of the Latin alphabet to write the Kurdish languages]was introduced by Celadet Bedir Khan and his brother Kamuran Alî Bedirxan and became widespread in Syrian Kurdistan, as it did in Turkish Kurdistan."

• "By the 1960s, after the eventual settlement of the borders of the successor states after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, Kurdistan was frequently divided into four regions corresponding to the Kurdish-majority areas of four adjacent modern states: Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and Syria. Syrian Kurdistan appeared alongside Persian (or Iranian), Iraqi, and Turkish Kurdistan as one of the principal regional divisions of Kurdish-inhabited territory in the Middle East."

These texts straight out claims that during the French mandate of Syria there was a "Syrian part of Kurdistan" or a "Kurdistan" in Syria. Please take a look at these sources of the French mandate of Syria and Ottoman Syria: [5] p14 and p20: [6]. You can clearly see that in the 1920s and Ottoman Syria, there was no "Syrian Kurdistan" or "Kurdistan". It was the French Mandate of Syria and more precisely, State of Aleppo, or State of Deir-ez Zor, or Vilayets of Aleppo/Deir ez Zor in Ottoman Syria. No mention of a "Syrian Kurdistan" or "Kurdistan". If we go even further back: 1916 map "Map of Eastern Turkey in Asia, Syria and Western Persia" - No mention of a "Kurdistan". Here is a Cedid Atlas map from 1803 showing "Kurdistan" in blue and clearly no part of it is in Syria:[7]. This is all historical documentation, not some cherry picked authors or journalists own personal pov. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:11, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

So, from a complete outsider's perspective, what you appear to be doing here Supreme Deliciousness is saying that this content cannot stand because the entity it's talking about doesn't appear in the sources you cite. That doesn't seem reasonable to me however - one particular source's failure to mention a subject does not prove that the subject does not exist. Syrian Kurdistan does seem to be discussed in detail in the sources that GP cited when he added that content - including, for example, the book 'Turmoil in the Middle East', published by a reputable academic publisher, and written by someone who appears to be a reputable academic working in a relevant field. We can't simply dismiss this content and sourcing because other sources don't say the same things - we can discuss how other sources differ, or how the content should be worded, but you can't just say 'it might be in source X, but it's not in source Y, so we can't include it.' Have you read GP's sources? Do you feel that they are mischaracterising them? GirthSummit _(blether) 07:02, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Girth Summit you are right that "one particular source's failure to mention a subject does not prove that the subject does not exist.", the problem here is that there are NO historical evidence that a "Syrian Kurdistan" exists, or a "Kurdistan" in Syria. Nothing! ZERO! 0%. Its all cherry-picked modern authors, zero historical documentation, while I have shown historical evidence on that very same land area that clearly does not show any "kurdistan" entity. Why should we disregard all real historical proof? And the first point in my TS that GPinkerton added has no source whatsoever. If it is true that "Syrian Kurdistan" existed in the French Mandate of Syria, why doesn't GPinkerton provide a source for it? Also please read this quote posted above: [8] "In the 1920s, Kurdish activists turned their eyes toward Turkish Kurdistan, their region of origin." "As a consequence, with the complicity of the Kurdish ‘clients’ (KDP, PUK and PKK), the Syrian regime steered Kurdish activists toward the ‘true Kurdistans,’ that is, Kurdish regions of Turkey and Iraq." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:38, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness, we can't get into OR analysis of modern sources. If serious modern scholarship talks about something, it can be challenged by other serious modern scholarship, but not by arguments based on historical documents and old maps. Otherwise you will need to show which sections are not supported by the existing sources. GirthSummit _(blether) 08:17, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Girth Summit, I brought 3 points in my TS. The first one has no source at all. The third one doesn't have any source supporting the claim "after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, Kurdistan was frequently divided into four regions" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:17, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness, OK, understood - this is something we can talk about. GPinkerton - the content above has been challenged. By the time of the Treaty of Lausanne... ...short-lived State of Syria and Syrian Federation. This is currently uncited, can you confirm which source supports it? Also after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, Kurdistan was frequently divided into four regions - which source supports this please? Thanks GirthSummit _(blether) 18:49, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

@Girth Summit: O'Shea, Maria T. (2004). Trapped Between the Map and Reality: Geography and Perceptions of Kurdistan. New York and London: Routledge. pp. 10–11, 52. ISBN 978-0-415-94766-4. Perhaps more interesting is the recurring theme that an independent state of Kurdistan, as well as Armenia, was justified in international law by the 1920 Treaty of Sevres, which allowed for the formation of such a state. It was widely believed that only the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne prevented this coming to pass. However, it can be seen from the relevant articles of the Treaty of Sevres and the accompanying map that the area designated as Kurdistan in no way corresponds to any conceptualization of Kurdistan, and appears to be simply a postscript to independent Armenia. (Fig. 10.9)" and "Unification in the 1920s was as unlikely as it is in the 1990s. Many of the reasons for the failure to create a Kurdish state then still exist now. The scattering of the Kurds among at least four different states ..." (pp. 10-11) and (p. 52) "Communications across the international boundaries dividing Kurdistan are practically non-existent for reasons of topography as well as state security; the boundaries run for the most part through inhospitable mountain chains. However, even within the portion of Kurdistan in one state, travel from one place to another may involve a circuitous route, for reasons not entirely topographical. For strategic reasons the provincial capitals throughout Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Syria are linked to the capital rather than each other. and see the usages, for example, of:

• Ghassemlou, Abdul Rahman (1965). Kurdistan and the Kurds. Publishing House of the Czechoslovak Academy of Sciences. p. 21. (i.e. the present-day Turkish, Iraqi and Syrian Kurdistan)
• In the Dispersion. Jersualem: World Zionist Organization, Organization Department, Research Section. 1962. p. 147. This book tells the tale of the Kurdish Jews who lived in the one hundred and ninety towns in what is now Iraqi, Persian, Turkish and Syrian Kurdistan
• Gotlieb, Yosef (1995). Development, Environment, and Global Dysfunction: Toward Sustainable Recovery. Delray Beach, FL: St Lucie Press. p. 118. ISBN 978-1-57444-012-6. The situation in Turkish Kurdistan is consistent with that of Iranian, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurdistan.
• Chaliand, Gérard, ed. (1993) [1978]. Les Kurdes et le Kurdistan [A People Without a Country: The Kurds and Kurdistan]. Translated by Pallis, Michael. London: Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-85649-194-5. ... these three regions - Kurd-Dagh, Ain-Arab, and Northern Jezireh...
• Mirawdeli, Kamal M. (1993). Kurdistan: Toward a Cultural-historical Definition. Badlisy Center for Kurdish Studies. p. 4. Turkish Kurdistan, an Iraqi Kurdistan, an Iranian Kurdistan, and a Syrian Kurdistan
• Gotlieb, Yosef (1982). Self-determination in the Middle East. Praeger. ISBN 978-0-03-062408-7. While the Kurds in Turkish, Soviet, Syrian, and Persian Kurdistan were held in place with and iron fist, the Iraqi Kurds fought virtually alone throughout the 1960s.
• Bruinessen, Martin van (1978). Agha, Shaikh and State: On the Social and Political Organization of Kurdistan. University of Utrecht. p. 22. I shall refer to these parts as Turkish, Persian, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurdistan. ... Most sources agree that there are approximately half a million Kurds in Syria.

It's great you highlighted the -I shall refer to these parts as Turkish, Persian, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurdistan.- part, clearly indicating a personal opinion (NOT an established fact) from a scholar working at the Center for Kurdish Studies (sounds very neutral). Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:15, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Interesting. What happened in the past 22 hours to change your mind? The professor was reliable source when you were citing him ... [9]. Perhaps you can try to explain yourself? GPinkerton (talk) 05:43, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

All of these sources are already in the article anyway, and have been consistently ignored repeatedly when adduced in discussions. The sources either side of the statement say very much the same thing as well. Syrian Kurdistan is also mentioned on page 48 of the first work cited, O'Shea, 2004. The claim there are NO historical evidence that a "Syrian Kurdistan" exists, or a "Kurdistan" in Syria. Nothing! ZERO! 0%. Its all cherry-picked modern authors, zero historical documentation ... is just outrageously and demonstrably untrue, as is the claim that the idea of a syrian Kurdistan is new and is the baby of PYD. As you can see, several of these sources were published long before the PYD was formed. GPinkerton (talk) 20:03, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you GPinkerton for providing these references. Supreme Deliciousness it seems like there are sources to support these assertions. Does that assuage your concerns about them? I will be happy to edit through to protection to add these sources to each of the assertions if everyone involved in this discussion is happy for me to do so. That is not to say that I am personally endorsing the content and sourcing - I haven't read the sources themselves, and am just taking this on trust from GP - but at least SD's concern that they are unsourced would be addressed; we'd then know what source supports each assertion, and would be in a better position to proceed to discussing the reliability of the sources for the content. Best GirthSummit _(blether) 20:19, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Girth Summit, The first source by O'Shea, Maria does not mention a "Syrian part of Kurdistan" or "Syrian Kurdistan" existing in 1920s, and it doesn't mention the French Mandate of Syria, Hatay State or the State of Aleppo. By phrasing it as it is in the article GPinkerton is giving unsupported legitimacy to a "Syrian part of Kurdistan" by mentioning these real historical geographical states together with a made up "Syrian part of Kurdistan". Later the O'Shea, Maria source says: "Unification in the 1920s was as unlikely as it is in the 1990s. Many of the reasons for the failure to create a Kurdish state then still exist now. The scattering of the Kurds among at least four different states ..." (pp. 10-11) and (p. 52) "Communications across the international boundaries dividing Kurdistan are practically non-existent for reasons of topography as well as state security; the boundaries run for the most part through inhospitable mountain chains. However, even within the portion of Kurdistan in one state, travel from one place to another may involve a circuitous route, for reasons not entirely topographical. For strategic reasons the provincial capitals throughout Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Syria are linked to the capital rather than each other." - She is now talking in the modern era. The "In the Dispersion" source says "in what is now Iraqi, Persian, Turkish and Syrian Kurdistan" - meaning it is not a historical name. The "Bruinessen, Martin van" source says: "I shall refer to these parts as Turkish, Persian, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurdistan." - this confirms that its just an opinion by the author, the author himself basically confirms that this is not real names.

What GPinkerton has done throughout this entire article is to cherry pick sources that use kurdish nationalist names and narrative and she tries to disregard other sources. And in some cases she is not even following her sources in regards to history as seen above. Lets look at other sources: Jordi Tejel (Tejel J. (2020) The Complex and Dynamic Relationship of Syria’s Kurds with Syrian Borders: Continuities and Changes. In: Cimino M. (eds) Syria: Borders, Boundaries, and the State. Mobility & Politics. Palgrave Macmillan, Cham.): "Nevertheless, Kurdish political parties have never set out to challenge Syrian national borders. In the 1920s, Kurdish activists turned their eyes toward Turkish Kurdistan, their region of origin. As a result, Kurdish intellectuals did not even attempt to represent the boundaries of the Kurdish regions in Syria in the textbooks printed during the French Mandate. Between the 1970s and 1990s, Syrian Kurds took part in a proxy Kurdish struggle as guerrilla fighters or simply by supporting the PKK, KDP or PUK in Turkey and Iraq, respectively. Turkish and Iraqi Kurdish parties, on their side, helped make Kurdish enclaves in Syria even more marginal within the Kurdish nationalist discourse." "As a consequence, with the complicity of the Kurdish ‘clients’ (KDP, PUK and PKK), the Syrian regime steered Kurdish activists toward the ‘true Kurdistans,’ that is, Kurdish regions of Turkey and Iraq. Furthermore, Abdullah Öcalan, leader of the PKK, even declared that there was no ‘Kurdish problem’ in Syria; he denied the legitimacy of a Syrian Kurdish movement or dismissed it as a small-scale movement that distracted from the ‘real struggle’ for (Turkish) Kurdistan (McDowall 1998: 69–70). Although this type of statement can be easily understood in light of the pressure from the Syrian ‘boss,’ it nevertheless created discomfort in Syria resulting in the alienation of some PKK sympathizers after Öcalan’s speech." - This author confirms that kurdish-inhabited regions in Syria are not a real "Kurdistan".

Other sources: Chambers's Encyclopædia. VI: Humber to Malta (New ed.). London and Edinburgh: William & Robert Chambers. 1890. p. 197 says "West Kurdistan" is bordering Iran - i.e. not in Syria as both Iraq and Turkey are between. Programm des Gymnasiums zu Sorau: 1875/76 . 1876. describes Diyarbakır as being "on the upper Tigris, in West Kurdistan" - i.e in Turkey, not Syria.

More sources: The Issue of the Kurds in Syria: Facts, History and Myth. Hamza Mustapha JSTOR "the history of the Kurds in Syria, beginning with the first major Kurdish immigration taking place between 1925 and 1939. It explains how the “Syrian” Kurdish issue was historically a “Turkish” problem whose effects shifted into Syria." "As a result, the Kurds in Turkey launched 17 uprisings against Ataturk’s policy, all of which failed – crushed and quelled by Ataturk. Each revolution followed with a mass flow of Kurdish migration, with hundreds and thousands heading to Mandate Syria, a migration that was concentrated in Upper Mesopotamia." One more: [10] "In an interview with a Syrian journalist, Öcalan himself denied the existence of a Syrian Kurdistan, claiming that the Kurds in Syria were only political refugees from Turkey." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:44, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

This has been discussed to death, your interpretation of these quotemined sentences is simply worng. Nowhere does Tejel say all the Syrian Kurds are immingrants, and states precisely the opposite numerous time. To say you're misunderstanding the sources is charitable. GPinkerton (talk) 08:49, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the adding the content and the sources provided by GPinkteron and also removing the "some" regional experts from the lead. As to me there doesn't exist a regional "expert" who denies the existence of a Syrian Kurdistan. If! there is found a reliable source which denies the existence of a Syrian Kurdistan, it can be added to a section on the issue, like "denial of Syrian Kurdistan" or "controversies". That it is called Rojava by Kurds can be added to the Etymology section.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:10, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

@Girth Summit: All the books are at least partly available through Google Books (search: "syrian kurdistan"), and as I say, the footnotes for most if not all of these references are already in the article somewhere. The sequence of constitutional events dealing with the various French colonial entities and Syrian republics and the status of Hatay is not dealt with in these sources specifically, but I'm not sure the fact that the State of Aleppo and Syrian Federation was followed by the State of Syria (1925–1930) and the First Syrian Republic can really be controversial: they're just there to furnish links to the relevant periods in the territories' history and explain how the place got from being in the Ottoman empire to being in the post-1963 Syrian Arab Republic. GPinkerton (talk) 21:17, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

This looks like merely phrasing causing confusion: "By the 1960s, after the eventual settlement of the borders of the successor states after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire,..." Do not see why this statement is an issue, but perhaps 'by' and double 'after' causing a misunderstanding? Could you rephrase, maybe i am misunderstanding. fiveby(zero) 22:25, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

In addition to the evidence above by SD, the authoritative book "Modern History of the Kurds" by David McDowall, does not mention even once a "Syrian Kurdistan", although the author does name "Appendix 2 The Kurds of Syria", "Appendix 3 The Kurds of Lebanon", "Appendix 4 The Kurds of the Caucasus", and does dedicate full chapters to Kurds in Turkey, Iran and Iraq. The importance of this authoritative book on Kurdish history is witnessed by the Washington Post Book World review: Here what the best single narrative history of the Kurds ... it certainly belongs on the shelf of anyone interested in the Middle East. (in the preface). Here is a full list of its content/chapters.

• Another book that describes social life in Kurdistan is "Agha, Shaikh and State: The Social and Political Structures of Kurdistan" by Martin Dr Martin van Bruinessen (Fellow of the Kurdish Institute in Paris). The book preface reads: " Exacerbated by the Gulf War, the plight of the Kurds is one of the most urgent problems facing the international community. This authoritative study of the Kurdish people provides a deep and varied insight into one of the largest primarily tribal communities in the world. It covers the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the great Kurdish revolt against republican Turkey, the birth of Kurdish nationalism and the situation of the Kurdish people in Iraq, Turkey and Iran today. Add to this, the absence of any pre-Syrian civil war maps showing "Syrian Kurdistan". May be Kurdish region in Syria, Kurdish-inhabited regions, etc., but no Syrian Kurdistan. The trivial references added by user pinkerton are simply WP:UNDUE and from biased sources/opinion books. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 07:08, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Girth Summit, I had typed my comments above before I noticed your response to SD's input above, so I am adding my response here. The problem is that Pinkerton is presenting their opinion as undisputed facts, when this is not the case. Likewise, Pinkerton removed another reference saying "Syrian Kurdistan" is an invention of nationalist Kurds under a false pretext about the authorship of the book (by Azmi Bishara et al.), without even bothering to read the discussion we had on this Talk page for weeks before they showed up a week or so ago. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 07:16, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

عمرو بن كلثوم, the source you mention in your latter post, which GPinkerton removed, is something which might be worth discussing, since you say it directly criticised the idea of a Syrian Kurdistand (rather than omitting to mention it). In their edit summary when they removed it, GP implied that the source is not RS. This might be a good starting point - has there been a discussion about it at RSN? GirthSummit _(blether) 07:45, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Girth Summit above, van Bruinessen's work is adduced as though it supports the argument that 1.) Syrian Kurdistan does not exist and 2.) Syrian Kurdistan, while not existing, was invented by the PYD. Nothing could be further from the truth. Indeed, I in fact added to the article van Bruinessen, who, as do most authors, divides Kurdistan into four regions in the book based on his PhD thesis: Bruinessen, Martin van (1978). Agha, Shaikh and State: On the Social and Political Organization of Kurdistan. University of Utrecht. p. 22. I shall refer to these parts as Turkish, Persian, Iraqi, and Syrian Kurdistan. ... Most sources agree that there are approximately half a million Kurds in Syria. when this work came to be published again, Professor van Bruinessen also chose to use the term "Syrian Kurdistan" for the region: Bruinessen, Martin Van (1992). Agha, Shaikh, and State: The Social and Political Structures of Kurdistan. London: Zed Books. ISBN 978-1-85649-018-4.. GPinkerton (talk) 20:18, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

The "source" is a book review of an Arabic language work published in Doha for the explicit purpose of advocating the continued unity of the Syrian Arab Republic of the al-Assad dynasty, whose purpose is largely to argue for that failed state's position on its ongoing war and its French- and Turkish-established 1920s borders are perfect and inviolable. It is quite tendentious to suggest this book, which no-one is actually citing, could overturn the decades of common practice of calling, in English, the Syrian part of Kurdistan Syrian Kurdistan. The opposing view is rather like claiming that Northern Ireland cannot exist because no map shows that territory in the year 1920. Bafflingly illogical. The suggestion the Cedid Atlas shows Kurdistan in blue is also just flat out wrong; reading the map demonstrates the blue area is labelled as the province of Mosul. This has been pointed out already and is sheer incompetence. The short-lived administrative district of Kurdistan was carved out and then swiftly reabsorbed many decades after the map was made and could never be argued to be indicative of anything like the extent of modern-day Kurdistan, or the majority-Kurdish regions of the 19th century. GPinkerton (talk) 10:22, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Also @Girth Summit:, yes there has. Predictably it went nowhere. Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_317#Is a book by the PhD candidate Mustafa Hamza a reliable source for a denial of a Syrian Kurdistan? NB the PhD candidate was author of the review of the book, not the author. GPinkerton (talk) 10:27, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

GPinkerton, your argument above about Doha etc. is WP:OR at best and meritless. If you had read a single line about the Syrian civil war you would know that Qatar was the first country to support the opposition to Assad. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 14:48, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Second, the main author of the book is Azmi Bishara, a well known thinker/politician/author in the Arab World. The RSN was hijacked by you and this is how you got involved in this article. Your northern Ireland comparison is ridiculous. We are talking about getting a map from 20 years ago, not 1920. If you were implying the Kurdish immigration into Syria happened only in the 1920s, you are wrong. Read McDowall to see the 27% jump in the Jazira population in the late 1940's due to the continuous inflow of Kurdish immigrants hopeful of getting a land in Syria. That is a discussion for another time. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 14:57, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

This is yet the best evidence denying a Syrian Kurdistan. In an interview with a Syrian journalist, Öcalan himself denied the existence of a Syrian Kurdistan, claiming that the Kurds in Syria were only political refugees from Turkey. Source The story is also mentioned in McDowall. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 15:41, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

@عمرو بن كلثوم: are you really suggesting we throw out all our reliable academic sources and believe the throwaway political comment (which you are misrepresenting and shearing of its necessary context from decades ago) of one Kurdish nationalist against all more recent and more reliable. For one that oh-so strenuously objected to "Kurdish nationalists' opinions" before (a professor in an OUP book, no less) this is certainly a massive volte-face! I wonder if it could be motivated by desperation and the inability to find literally a shred of evidence for your peculiar world view? The idea that Azmi Bishara is somehow an authoritative source on topics even remotely relating to history or the Syrian civil war is ridiculous. Here is a man who is well known to sympathize with Hezbollah, a close ally of al-Assad's regime and also known to have a Turkish affiliate whose main responsibility is pursue the types of suppression of Kurds in Turkey that even the Turkish government is too ashamed to employ itself. That you're presenting this activist as anything even close to academic history is yet another absurd hill for you choose to die on. GPinkerton (talk) 16:22, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Have you even read the source? It's a communist journalist (writing under what is almost certainly a pseudonym) writing for a tiny communist audience, and whose main thrust is that the formation of borders is antithetical to the inevitabiliuty of historical progress, or somesuch Marxist revolutonary imperative. Are you really admitting this stuff is the best you can muster? Becuase this is weak, so weak. GPinkerton (talk) 16:50, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Pinkerton,if I were you I would only focus on the content, especially given all the trouble you are in right now with your agressive personal attack behavior. The communist site didn't invent the OCalan story which is well known and mentioned in McDowall, but you chose to ignore it. Well, as you say, it is from decades ago and that exactly proves our point; that the idea of a syrian Kurdistan is new and is the baby of PYD. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 17:52, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

I will repeat: no matter how much you desire to the contrary, the concept of Syrian Kurdistan has existed long before the PYD existed, as you have repeatedly refused to acknowledge, dispute the repeated supply of sources that utterly refute your bizarre assertions. If Syrian Kurdistan were invented by the (apparently time-travelling) PYD, then why would their founder state otherwise. No, you will not convince reasonable people of this patently false claim you're repeatedly making. It really is not worth your time you keep pursuing this failed quest. GPinkerton (talk) 18:26, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

You can go visit Ocalan and ask him why he said that. Fortunately, we have a moderator here and it's not up to you to decide whether syrian Kurdistan is an established or disputed concept. I have presented several pieces of evidence here, and the authoritative books not mentioning that term when comprehensively covering Kurdistan is further evidence. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 18:44, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

GPinkerton Sorry to be multi-pinging you here. Can I ask you to cut out the personalised rhetoric altogether please, it's really not helping, in fact it's making your posts longer and more difficult to parse. If we could stick to the content/sourcing entirely, and avoid personal commentary about others' motivations or desires, it really would help move this discussion along. For clarity, I'm talking about comments such as this is certainly a massive volte-face! I wonder if it could be motivated by desperation, or no matter how much you desire to the contrary - they are adding nothing, it's just point-scoring. Thanks in advance. GirthSummit _(blether) 18:56, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

One more recent book (The Kurds of Northern Syria Governance, Diversity and Conflicts By Harriet Allsopp, Wladimir van Wilgenburg · 2019) that talks EXCLUSIVELY about Syrian Kurds without even mentioning the "Syrian Kurdistan" thing. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 04:10, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Repeating a logical fallacy will not make it less fallacious. Argumentum ex silentio will get you nowhere, especially a malformed one, as this book refers to Western Kurdistan on page 89. GPinkerton (talk) 04:28, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Since you seem to not read what you are adding, here is an excerpt from the massive text you introduced in the History section of the page: The late 19th-century Chambers's Encyclopaedia referred to "west Kurdistan" as bordering Iran in its entry on that country.[19] A German gymnasium text book from Sorau (modern Żary) describes Diyarbakır as being "on the upper Tigris, in West Kurdistan" .[20] Amand von Schweiger-Lerchenfeld [de], who travelled over much of the Ottoman Empire, also referred to "West Kurdistan" in his Der Orient of 1882,[21] while Daniel Völter [de], in his Allgemeine Erdbeschreibung, also mentioned "West Kurdistan" in 1848.[22] "West Kurdistan" was referred to by Mark Sykes in his 1908 paper in the Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute as being in part of Kurdistan conquered by Selim I (r. 1512–1520).[23]:470 Sykes, having undertaken a 7,500-mile (12,100 km) journey through the Ottoman Empire, published one of first surveys in English on the Kurdish tribes.[23]:451 In 1907, he had written in The Geographical Journal that "the Kurds are a very little understood people, whose history has yet to be written, and even whose distribution is at present but little known".[24]:251 If you don't know where Diyarbakir is, hint, it's in a country NORTH of the Syrian border, so Western Kurdistan "per your claim" is NOT Syrian Kurdistan. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:08, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

In the 19th century Kurdistan was divided into two, a West Kurdistan in the Ottoman Empire, and an East Kurdistan in the Iranian Empire. Diyarbakir is in the now-Turkish part of West Kurdistan. Kobane is in the now-Syrian part of West Kurdistan. It shouldn't be too hard for someone to see that it is quite unreasonable to imagine that people would have separate names for territories that had yet to be separated. None of your repeating my sources is going any distance towards proving that "Syrian Kurdistan" is not the WP:COMMONNAME for the Syrian part of Kurdistan. So far you've brought precisely no sources evidencing this view. GPinkerton (talk) 05:37, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

This is another historical falsehood by SD (and Amr Ibn), which has a similar subject as the one here (the existence of Syrian Kurdistan), I'd like an admin to look into. In a move discussion in 2015 SD wanted to move the Syrian Kurdistan article to Kurdish occupied regions of Syria in the midst of the Siege of Kobane by ISIL (better known in the media as ISIS). ISIS is probably the most classified terror organization in the world and the Kurds defending themselves during the siege are supported by Global coalition of 83 countries. This is blatant POV, (if one reads the news they should have known about ISIS, liberation of Kobane, Tell Abyad, Raqqa etc.) and is sure not supported by any means in the academic field and the denial of a Syrian Kurdistan is also not supported by the academic field. Amr Ibn supported SD at the time, though they also suggested the tilte "PYD controlled areas"(PYD is a Pro-Kurdish party) but this is really just slightly better. The regions liberated from ISIS are sure not seen as occupied by any academic just as the French resistance are not the occupiers of French regions formerly occupied by the NAZIS. SD still views the regions liberated from ISIS or the Jihadists as Kurdish-occupied as of the 18 November 2020. This even after I mentioned this discussion on 2015 on the 12 November 2020. Amr Ibn called ISIS liberated areas so many times Kurdish occupied, I don't even bother to show it in a diff. The SDF mainly (ca.98%) gained control over localities and territories formerly controlled by Al Qaeda-like Jihadists or ISIS and held multiple peace negotiations with Assad and also Turkey. I'd say this is a weird POV to phrase it out diplomatically and mildly and I'd like to know what an Admin like User:Girth Summit thinks of this. I suggest admins should be aware of the POV by SD and Amr Ibn in relation to Syrian KurdistanParadise Chronicle (talk) 05:46, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

GPinkerton, if all the evidence we presented did not convinced you, nothing will, and that's your problem. Before you showed up here with your editing behavior editors here had a consensus that this term is used by some and disputed by others. Again, as usual, you make arguments and jump to conclusions before doing your homework. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 16:45, 25 November 2020 (UTC) User:عمرو بن كلثوم There was no consensus at all and this is why I filed two discussions at the noticeboards, where I was given a way twice, and then Aram opened an RfC because he didn't like the outcome, WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Now GPinkerton has expanded the article really significantly instead of just edit warring like we are used it by others. And عمرو بن كلثوم (Amr Ibn) just wants to go on denying, misrepresent the sources and claim that if an author writes about the history, population or other events concerning of Kurds in Syria or Syrian Kurdistan it means there does not exist a Syrian Kurdistan. By the way, still no answer by anyone on the -stan#regions argument by me.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:01, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Common name of the area and proposed move

Per WP:COMMONNAME policy, I propose renaming this page to "Kurdish region (or regions) of Syria". This is based on the Google search results below:

• "Kurdish region" and "Syria": About 211,000 results
• "Kurdish area" and "Syria": About 30,500 results
• "Kurdish inhabited" and "Syria": About 9420 results
• "Syrian Kurdistan": About 85,500 results

Also, below are some major news outlets and the term they use for the area with examples:

• CNN: Kurdish region. Syria grants citizenship to thousands in the Kurdish region
• BBC: Kurdish region. On our way to Qamishli, the largest Kurdish city in northern Syria, we see a US military convoy escorted by fighter jets heading east towards the Iraqi border. They are leaving the Kurdish region.
• Reuters: Border between Iraqi Kurdistan and Syrian Kurdish region closed...
• NYT: A recent trip by a reporter through the Kurdish area of Syria revealed ...
• WP: The Kurdish area of Syria is relatively secure ...
• WSJ: The Kurdish region of Syria ...
• Al-Jazeera: Kurdish areas of Syria ...

Obviously there is more, but this is only a start. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:51, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

• oppose. There already exists the article Kurds in Syria. This article is about the Syrian part of Kurdistan, Syrian Kurdistan which lies adjacent to Turkish and Iraqi Kurdistan.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 06:05, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

No, Kurds is Syria is about Kurds in Syria (Kurdish region and elsewhere (Damascus, Aleppo, Hama, etc.). Kurdish region is the geographical location where Kurds live in a relatively larger concentration (30-70% according to McDowall) compared to other areas. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 06:16, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

@Girth Summit: What do you think? Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 06:17, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

• Only one of the terms "Kurdish region" and "Kurdish inhabited" and "Syrian Kurdistan" is a name. The other two are not names. One can see clearly, if one is inclined, that the BBC uses "Syrian Kurdistan" to refer to this place. Indeed, it is often quite specific that that is the English language name, and the Kurdish language name is Rojava.

• BBC Syrian Kurdistan
• BBC Syrian Kurdistan
• BBC "Rojava is the term Kurds use to refer to western or Syrian Kurdistan"
• BBC ""When I discovered Rojava [the term Kurds use to refer to northern or Syrian Kurdistan I felt I had to go there," he told the BBC."]
• BBC "Harry described the feeling of taking the Islamic State's main camp for Rojava (Syrian Kurdistan) as "quite symbolic"."
• BBC ""President Erdogan," Prof Landis told me, "is convinced that if 'Rojava' (the term Kurds use to refer to western or Syrian Kurdistan, and the name of a new federal region they want to create) comes into being, Turkey's Kurds will have a rear base from which to make a drive for their own independence."
• BBC ["Quite deliberately choosing to describe the region of northern Syria as "West Kurdistan" the PYD leader said most people in the region stood with the movement and supported their aims."]

If one reads WP:COMMONNAME, one'll see it says quite plainly how useless a basic Google search is in determining the primary name in reliable sources. No alternative name has been proposed. If one were to compare "Western Kurdistan" with "Syrian Kurdistan", one would see that Syrian Kurdistan is far more common in reliable media. GPinkerton (talk) 06:29, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

@عمرو بن كلثوم: We can start new discussions about the same topic as many as we like, and we have opened at least 5 discussions about the existence of Syrian Kurdistan within in only a few weeks with the outcome of an admin protected page. I suggest we let the foregoing discussions come to an end (some actually came to an end, but their results were not accepted by the denial faction of which you are part of) first, before opening new discussions.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 06:47, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

References

Welcome to the light, Amr. You may have forgotten where you've argued against WP:COMMONNAME previously, but that's OK, I'm just glad you're on board with it now. Now you can revisit Talk:Al-Malikiyah, Talk:Al-Muabbada, Talk:Al-Jawadiyah, and the talk pages of all the other Syrian settlements that still have to be moved and state your new position. Good for you, well done. Konli17 (talk) 15:41, 25 November 2020 (UTC)