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Talk:Surfside condominium collapse/Archive 4

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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4

Requested move 27 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved Onel5969 TT me 15:05, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Surfside condominium collapse → Champlain Towers South collapse – Title should have building name not the name of the city —JlACEer (talk) 15:39, 27 July 2021 (UTC) The name of the complex was Champlain Towers. The building that collapsed was Champlain Towers South. This page should not be named after the city in which the building was located. Champlain Towers South collapse would seem to be a more appropriate page title than the current title. Most other Wiki pages that are written about a collapse include the name of the structure in the page title — not the name of the city. Examples include the Wiki pages for Sampoong Department Store collapse, Knickerbocker Theatre (Washington, D.C.), Collapse of Hotel New World and Hyatt Regency walkway collapse. These pages use the name of the building in the title, not the city. Surfside should become a redirect, not the other way around. It should be noted that this suggestion was gaining support prior to the unfortunately-timed previous move.—JlACEer (talk) 15:12, 27 July 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. Surachit (talk) 09:16, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

  • Comment: I was curious about the possibility of any other places named Champlain Towers, I performed a Google search for "Champlain Towers" -Miami -Surfside -Florida -South from which I see the top result being a place in Ottawa, Canada, and the Champlain Towers East located north of the collapsed condominium. There is also the Champlain Towers North located north of the East building. (No, there is no West building) So for anybody else wanting to also look, the usage of South seems precise here. – The Grid (talk) 16:24, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Additional note: Champlain Towers does redirect to here. – The Grid (talk) 16:26, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support This is what other major collapses have done for the most part. The Hyatt Regency, the Sampoong Department Store, Rana Plaza. Calling it Surfside Condo is a bit daft in my opinion. 68.144.93.30 (talk) 16:40, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Under WP:NCEVENT#Industrial accidents and incidents there is nothing suggesting that titles of building collapses should have the building name instead of the city. In fact, the only listed example for a building collapse is 2013 Dhaka garment factory collapse (which 68.144.93.30 erroneously assumed was titled "Rana Plaza collapse"). Also, for the most part, reliable sources use some variation of "Surfside condo collapse" or "Miami condo collapse". Almost none refer to it as the Champlain Towers collapse. I searched "collapse" on a bunch of major reliable sources. The following table contains the three most recent articles for the collapse on each RS I visited.  Bait30  Talk 2 me pls? 03:02, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
The New York Times Officials are ending the search for survivors in the Surfside condo collapse. Six rescue workers test positive for coronavirus at the Florida condo collapse site. The Bidens will visit the site of the Florida building collapse on Thursday.
NPR The Search Surfside Is Over, But The Grieving Process Continues For Many Involved The Last Victim Has Been Identified In The Florida Condo Collapse What's Next At The Site Of The Surfside Condo Collapse
The Telegraph Miami building collapse: Two children among dead as mayor orders hundreds of high-rise inspections Miami building collapse: No sign of final missing person as search formally ends Bodies of pregnant British mother and her husband found in rubble of collapsed Miami apartment block
Deutsche Welle Florida ends search for survivors of building collapse Hurricane Elsa heads for Florida amid Miami condo rescue efforts Florida condo collapse: Rescue mission stops ahead of demolition
Haaretz Search Called Off for Survivors of Florida Condo Collapse Crews Give Up Hope of Finding Survivors at Florida Condo Collapse Site Demolition Crews Flatten Rest of Florida Condo Building
The Globe and Mail Recovery effort at collapsed Miami condo building could end soon Two Montreal friends identified among dead and missing after Miami condo building collapse Families of last victims in Miami condo collapse say waiting is agony
  • Oppose. The proposed title is unhelpful in describing the location of the condominium. Current title is fine. WWGB (talk) 03:47, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Bait30. Rublov (talk) 13:05, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose per bait's chart and wp:commonname—blindlynx (talk) 15:17, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Support Per other articles about major building collapses and the lack of location identifiability of Surfside, Florida, which is a tiny Miami suburb. It's worth noting that Champlain Towers South is mentioned -- usually within the first paragraph -- in all of the linked articles in the box above. Headline writers are known for their brevity, so, no, they don't mention the full name of the building in every headline. That doesn't mean the name of the building hasn't been used constantly in the media. It is widely known. (And notice also that Surfside is the named location in only 3 of the 18 headlines in that box.) Moncrief (talk) 17:45, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose — have had time only to listen/and watch e.g., BBC World News and glance at various subtitles printed below; and to search for the latest news, via Google et al search...; perhaps after some «meaningless» decades/centuries this piece of work'll be renamed to sth like "Mishap of engineering in XX", if compared to 9/11
    Hiroshima bombing → target no. XXXn engagement with a weapon no YYYYY, why to discriminate one nation over other? — Pietadè (talk) 19:48, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I wouldn't even say decades. We're most likely going to see engineering technical reports addressing this as "Champlain Towers South collapse" this year or in 2022 but it will also have "aka whatever name gets best hits in the search engine" - that's a definite. – The Grid (talk) 21:56, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency: Hyatt Regency walkway collapse, Sampoong Department Store collapse, Versailles wedding hall disaster, Collapse of the World Trade Center—JlACEer (talk) 02:57, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I would call that an apples-to-oranges situation for sure. The World Trade Center towers were highly famous buildings before their collapse. Champlain Towers South, not so much. For linguistic reasons I can't fully explain but I think you'll understand intuitively if you're a native speaker, the difference in title word order between the two topics makes a certain sense. Moncrief (talk) 03:15, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
Yes - see my comment in the previous move discussion. Aasim (talk) 23:05, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
To add more clarity: This is more consistent in how we generally titled other structural failures. Aasim (talk) 23:06, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
Yes, as in Support or Oppose? It's hard to know what "This" refers to in your clarifying comment. Moncrief (talk) 00:07, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
Support. If I did not support a measure, I would have said no. Aasim (talk) 00:42, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Support/Oppose - I agree that the name should be changed, but not what is currently being recommended. If there were ever a second condo collapse in Surfside (god forbid), it would cause havoc on this article. Likewise, as stated by others, there's more than one Champlain Towers in the world outside of Surfside, so likewise if another Champlain Towers collapsed, it would still cause issues. Instead, I urge that we instead go with the name "Surfside Champlain Towers South Collapse", or something similar to that effect. May also be worth looking at other collapses and making similar changes to create a formal standard for naming building disasters. The Legacy (talk) 21:00, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
    We can't predict the future as stated in WP:CRYSTAL. If a future event happened, we can always move the page based on those circumstances. My first comment here showed there most likely wouldn't be confusion on using the name of the condominium especially with the precision of a building collapse. – The Grid (talk) 20:24, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
    If there's gonna be another Surfside condominium collapse we can add a year and change this article's title to '2021 Surfside condominium collapse'. — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:26, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose Most sources call it "Surfside". Regardless of what other articles are called, Wikipedia uses what the sources use. Wikipedia articles shouldn't have names not supported by sources.--JOJ Hutton 23:39, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME per below evidence:
Prevalence of headlines by name
Name
Results
Google News
Results
Selected RS
Search terms
(using allintitle operator)
Surfside condominium collapse 156 . . . [1]
(at least) 		265 . . . [2]
(at least) 		surfside collapse
Champlain Towers South collapse 76 . . . [3] 28 . . . [4] champlain towers collapse
Selected RS:
Associated Press, BBC , The Guardian, NYT, Reuters, Washington Post, CNN, NPR, PBS, NBC, ABC News, USA Today, L.A. Times,
CS Monitor, WSJ, Financial Times, Agence France-Presse, Al Jazeera, CNBC, Bloomberg News, Chicago Tribune, US News, Politico, UPI
— Alalch Emis (talk) 17:15, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

NYT article about the building's construction

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/25/us/miami-building-collapse-surfside.html

A good read that explains the history of the building's construction. – The Grid (talk) 20:55, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Proposal for the long rescue/relief section

The rescue/relief section is mighty long and could use some shortening, but it feels wrong to just remove some of the info from the section. My proposal is to create a new page called Timeline of rescue and relief efforts for the Surfside condominium collaspe and move all of this section to this page; then link to this page + provide a short blurb of the most important bits.

Of course, the actual title of this new page would reflect what this page is called.

-184.56.75.144 (talk) 02:31, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

No, editing the section down would be easy enough, there is a lot of excess verbiage. Start with "According to ..." material. Abductive (reasoning) 08:35, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
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