Talk:Sumter de Leon Lowry Jr.

POV issues

This article is essentially a coatrack rather than a biography. Until that changes, the reader should be warned. Qwirkle (talk) 00:29, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Do you have any specific examples, rather than just a vague complaint? What is on the coatrack? How could the article be improved?Jacona (talk) 10:13, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

That seems to be a very specific complaint, nothing vague about it. Compare this article to, say, Bilbo’s. Lowry’s unfortunate racial views are given more prominence than those of Bilbo in the lead of his article. You could go on with this, article by article, of men (mostly) who were pretty much known for little else than racism, and yet the first sentence in the article is not “white supremicist”. There was obviously a good deal more to him than this, and yet that is treated almost in passing.

This can be seen in the sourcing: a blog, an article about a city park, snippets of political campaign rhetoric- almost never a balanced portrait of an opponent. It can be seen in the accuracy of the article: The article creator was claiming that the subjects father was a Confederate army surgeon...at four years of age apparently. Qwirkle (talk) 15:03, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Have your concerns been addressed? deisenbe (talk) 15:33, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Of course not. The lead is no longer a simple hatchet job, but the body remains so. Qwirkle (talk) 15:44, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Specifically what are you still objecting to, and specifically how do you believe it should be addressed? deisenbe (talk) 15:48, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Qwirkle Based the sources, this article looks like it's been thoroughly whitewashed to make him look good, but I'm sure there are sources that aren't in the article. Please help by pointing out any statements that aren't sourced accurately. Please provide additional sources about his military, insurance, and other background, and make the article better!Jacona (talk) 16:30, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

@Jacona: Do you agree with the whitewashing? I like your term. Since Qwirkle has not said anything more, if he's going to leave the POV tag, and be allowed to do so, I may put back in some of what I removed hoping for his approval. (Why can one person hold an article hostage like this? And this isn't the first such case with discourteous Qwirkle.) deisenbe (talk) 09:53, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

When someone...you, in this case, @Deisenbe:...takes a source that starts “A few years later, General Sumter Lowry whose philanthropy helped Tampa grow into a major city during the 1950’s..” and uses it only to support the less appetizing aspects of the subject mentioned later, the onus is on them to explain why the article should not be tagged to alert the reader. Whether @Billmckern:’s good work has been enough to drag the article out of the hole you created it in is something I’ll leave to others to decide. You should also, rather than tag-teaming support.Qwirkle (talk) 18:59, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. When an editor leaves information about what they object to, it's far more likely to result in productive collaboration than just splashing paint on the wall, which is more or less what adding the template achieves.Jacona (talk) 19:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

According to template removal instructions item #2, when "It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given.", the template should be removed. When you add to the article, be careful to be faithful to your sources. If a source makes an extreme statements, be skeptical and question the accuracy/bias of the particular source before adding it. But if it holds up, by all means use it, while maintaining a neutral point of view and avoiding undue weight to a particular topic.Jacona (talk) 10:26, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

,It's not correct that General Lowry was a philanthropist that helped Tampa. That was his father, who had the same name. deisenbe (talk) 19:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Three points. First this is incorrect. You can argue that the father’s earlier work was more important, but that cite, which you (mis)selected, @Deisenbe:, was referring to the 1950s, when Sr. was fifteen to twenty-five years dead. It could not have meant him. Next, the family, Jr. included, seemed to have continued on the path their parents blazed. Still do, by the look of it. Finally, if you thought it wrong, why did you use it, unannotated, as a cite? Qwirkle (talk) 21:23, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I made a mistake (confusing the two), but I corrected it quickly.

This whole business is a good example of WP:NO THANKS deisenbe (talk) 21:49, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Which, unsurprisingly, addresses none of the points raised. Qwirkle (talk) 22:04, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

@Qwirkle:, @Deisenbe: I have more details to add, and I think when I'm done the Lowry article will be suitable. I know he made an unsuccessful 1962 run for Congress and lost to Sam Gibbons. His second wife and he also had a charitable foundation, and I'm not positive, but I believe it's still active. There may be more stuff I haven't uncovered yet - if so, I'll include that too.

Billmckern (talk) 05:41, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

I am amazed at what you've come up with. deisenbe (talk) 10:05, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

@Deisenbe: I think I've taken this article about as far as I can. it's detailed, everything is (I think) topical, and there are citations for everything. I also added a photo to the Infobox and moved the portrait to the post-WW II section - in the Infobox, photos trump other media when it comes to a likeness of the individual. The only thing I've been unable to find is details on his two honorary degrees. They're mentioned in an obituary, and I'm sure one was from the University of Tampa. I suspect the other is from the University of South Florida. I haven't been able to find definite confirmation, so I'll keep looking.

Billmckern (talk) 11:03, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

This has just come in and I’m picking it up this morning:

       A loan that you had requested:

       Loan Title: The segregation factor in the Florida Democratic gubernatorial primary of 1956
       Loan Author: Jacobstein, Helen L., 1925-
       TN: 287815
               Delivery Location: GLA

       is now available for checkout. deisenbe (talk) 11:39, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

@Deisenbe: I referenced Jacobstein's work in the article. I found a copy online. It's short, but thorough. You may find additional details worth making use of of that I didn't include.

Billmckern (talk) 12:39, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Great work! Jacona (talk) 13:51, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Philanthropy

As suggested by other editors, there are many sources describing philanthropy by the family, particularly involving S.L. Sr. and Willie Miller Lowry. [1], [2], etc. It's not likely for inclusion in this article (WP:COATRACK). She very likely could have her own article. It's easy to confuse her with Sumter's sister, Willie Louise Lowry (aka Mrs. Vaughan Camp), because this family really, really liked to reuse names.Jacona (talk) 13:19, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Not quite re-use in that case; the daughter’s given name was Willie, but the mother’s, God help us, was actually William.

Note that Blanche Armwood, who Mrs. Lowry (sr.) worked with on the second, (segregated) library does have an article. Wikipediots like to think that they’re working on eliminating the invisibilty of some historical figures, but in fact they’ve just layed out a different double standard. Qwirkle (talk) 14:51, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Link to 56th

I dunno if this is one of the many examples of false friends in unit lineages, or whether the linked article needs expansion, but there is no mention of Pacific service in it that I could see. Qwirkle (talk) 21:25, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

@Qwirkle: That wikilink was a false friend. It goes to a different 56th Brigade than the one from Florida. I removed the link brackets.

Billmckern (talk) 05:41, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. RA/AUS/NG/USV/State militia is enough of a mess; it’s even worse when CSA shows up Qwirkle (talk) 17:17, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Extended content

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Spelling Shouldn't it be Sumter de Leon Lowry, Jr. (no space between de and Leon), and remove possible confusion with his father?Jacona (talk) 10:14, 30 April 2019 (UTC) "Jr." never appears in any of the articles and his name is always spelled with no space between "de" and "Leon". His father is never "Sr." Note that one of his sons also had the same name. deisenbe (talk) 10:45, 30 April 2019 (UTC) I don't mean to be contentious, but his name is frequently spelled de Leon. Here's an official document [3] Here is Sr., referred to as both Sr. and "De Leon" [4], and again [5]. If you notice this signed letter [6], and in most references, he refers to himself as Sumter L. Lowry; because the "de" is considered an insignificant word. If he was deLeon, it would be Sumter D. Lowry. Here's one of many sources I could find referring to him as "de Leon" and Jr. [7]. The Congressional Record lists him as "Sumter de Leon Lowry, Jr." [8] I believe we should trust his military records and the Congressional record rather than some articles that may have gotten it wrong.Jacona (talk) 11:44, 30 April 2019 (UTC) A couple more with the space and the jr. [9],[10]Jacona (talk) 12:01, 30 April 2019 (UTC) You've more than convinced me. deisenbe (talk) 15:04, 30 April 2019 (UTC) I made a mistake and renamed the Talk page separately, now I've got to fix it. deisenbe (talk) 15:07, 30 April 2019 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. |} Please re-rate Can I prevail on someone to re-rate this article? I revised it extensively a while ago, so I'm sure it's not start class anymore. Thanks, Billmckern (talk) 17:48, 1 January 2022 (UTC)