Talk:Statism in Shōwa Japan/Archive 1

VfD result

This article was nominated for deletion, but there was not a consensus to delete. For details, please see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Japanese fascism. -- BD2412 ^talk June 28, 2005 19:30 (UTC)

General comment over Japanese fascism

i added respect at european fascist apports,why Japanese thinker Kita Ikki and others why traveled for europe,or readed some european political books receiving these ideologycal apport and theirs transformed this in new japanese political rigth-wing thinking and remembered why during last 30s,and 40s decades,japan receiving the visit of Members of European fascist parties,represent for example,Eugen Ott German nazi ambassador,some Nazi party or SS units members and exist one reduced German and Italian Colony in Tokio,Karafuto and other parts in Japanese empire.

Theirs if supposed,leaving examples of Mein Kampf and other European fascist ideology bibliographical sources,why Japanese thinkers and philosphers readed at continuing,for added these apports at local radical nationalists ideololy.these ideologycal interchange inclusive if continuing at lasts stages of conflict,when way German subs arriving to Japan,along german scientists and experts somes Nazi German politics and Military forces or SS members(case how German sub why realizing the travel to germany at Japan with one SS political member along Japanese Navy passengers,in special travel to transport Uranium 234 for nuclear artifact) or exist some flying plans of Luftwaffe or Italian Regia Aeronautica)(special fligth from Europe,over Russia and Siberia Mainland to Manchukuo for Japanese Navy or special figth of Heinkel He 277 V-1 from Salzburg to East Asia or fligth plan of Junkers Ju 290A with special logn range modifications from France to Manchukuo,how others examples) making ultra-long range fligths from Europe to Manchukuo or Japan during last months of European front.or before at conflict when Soviet Russia are certain member of Axis,whe Germany and Japan use with Russian autorization,the Transiberian railway for commercial envoys of prime materials.

In Japan Germany and Italy mantain inside diplomatic services,ones cultural departments,for mantain cultural contact with your own citizens and cultural interchange with Japanese natives.japan mantain official and ideologycal contact with Axis alliance for media of your Ambassador in Europe,General Hiroshi Oshima,why mantained in your post at final of european war.reiterrally if evident why during these political or ideolgycal interchanges,if impossibly why Japanese,well knowed over liked to learned about foreing knowledge,no take any political apports products of these interchange.

Respect at some East Asian connections with Japanese nationalism and nazism,exist evidence about Wang-Chingwei s meetings with german Leader or local Hindu leaders in British administration why stay in secret contacts with german and Japanese agents before and wartimes during Pacific War or the White Russian political use of Fascism ideology and the Swastika in Manchukuo.these ideologycal interchange apport other asian rigth-wing elements to japanese nationalists sources during conflitc times.

Some direct historical traditions comparing between Axis Members

If possibly seeing some direct historical precedents why also integrated from your local traditions the Axis alliance members.

when observed why Japanese take your traditions of Samurai warriors,Bushi-do Code or administra tive sistem of Shogunate,in relative parallel Fascist Italy remember your ancient ideals of Roman Empire or Cavaliers traditions or in one most depth case,Nazi Germany also used the ideals of First Reich and your King Othon I,the Teutonic Cavalier Order, the "Fredericus Rex" legends the Second Reich Empire military traditions for mixed this with your NS ideology.or inclusive when if observed the comparing when Germany and Italy if sign the alliance are how the "Sacred Germanic-romanic Empire". but tha mosts knowed example of these traditions in German case are the "Prussian Military Spirit" provided from German Province of East Prussia.

Japanese local Nationalists thinking

joining at previous elements mentioned,if see the local radical elements from ancient times,with Samurai military caste,Bushido code or Shogunate administration.these elements,more later mixed with recent contemporary japanese nationalist philosophy and thnking during Meiji Period(this if i denomined at these political period of japanese nationalism how "Japanese fascism").when cominzed the travels of Japanese thinkers and philosophers to America or Europe and others parts of the world(inclusive africa,for example),theirs seeing the local thinkings and take the interestings ideologycal elements and mixed with own thnking,along the first interchange with European rigth-wing thinking and Philosophy.more later when raising the Axis ideology in Europe,these interchange continuing,and these ideologysts receiving new elements,and this process if mantained during the rests of WW2 period until final.(these last period from last Meiji days to raising Showa period until august 1945,i named how political term of "Showa ideology or Showa nationalism")

Japanese local Nationalists thinking in actual days

In present days if possibly why exists some idelogycal interchange but in reduced form for part of local rigth-wing radicals and nationalists with American European,Asian or other extreme rigth followers around the world.Inclusive actually times,exists somes local rigth-wing nationalist japanese groups how NSJAP(National Socialist Japanese Party) why defend these lazes and stay connect with local nationalist secret societies and theirs realizing interchange with others NS followers in Europe,America or Asia in present days.theirs remembered the figure of General Hiroshi Oshima how one great leader,along General Hideki Tojo or Emperor Hiro-Hito. these and other groups remember the Axis Powers Alliance too when analized the paper represent for Japanese Empire joining Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy in some think thank groups,local conferences and some international meetings in other countries in European area for example,and theirs defend the local values and thinking over foreing elements in Japan.

a single powerful political and military leader came into being

"a single powerful political and military leader came into being"

When, if ever, was this the case? Doubt must be cast upon these weak, unsubstantiated arguments of a sole, dictatorial ruler in Japan. The whole history of Japan is built upon the idea of a puppet government, at least from the Yamato line on (and even then their power was severely limited). What basis is there for this kind of ruler during WWII or even pre-WWII?

Furthermore, your article on "War crimes in the Pacific" needs sources....

Some Response

these weak,unsubstantiated arguments of a sole, dictatorial rulerwith absolute powers in Japan.respect at this also exist one continuing chain of dictatorial leading from legendary Himiko Princess,Jinmu Emperor,anothers emperors how Yuraku,the Shogun Militarist Samurai leaders,Meiji Emperor or most recent the Hiro-hito Emperor.about the respective military powerfull cast or leading group stay represent for ancient warriors to Bushi or Samurai warriors and contemporary Imperial Japanese Army and Navy Forces.the political decisions taken for these leaders mentioned before are unquestionably,one dogmatical question without never dudes of any type.if one poses some any dude,if stay against such political sistem and national religious beliveings.

in actual days from august 1945,these dictatorial ruler and militarist groups no exists any representant of theirs,and Emperor figura if only representative and religious symbol of nation along democratic and representative government.

In first place,exist one ancient Cultural and historical Chain of some local ideas why more later in contemporary times served how support at one Dictatorial centralized government along one mistycal and mesianic symbol represent by Emperor.

these elements are this:

ancient religion combined with policy aspectswhy legitimize at powerfull leader or Clans from primitive times.

one oldests militaristic enviroment represent by private or government para-military groups or proper police or military forces with some political influence from ancient times.

some groups of influence represent by certain alliances or the ancient knowed clans of Chosu and Satsuma why managed all militarist things or poses some influence with power groups.

the some centralization of managed the commerce,farms,mining or in other case declared government or private monopolies since ancient times.

somes ancient"nationalist" ideas from primitive times,why more laterare mixing with contemporary rigth-wing ideas,socialism andsimilar political ideas.

the traditinal and primitve natural defense of your proper values and culture againstforeing influences,at same timetheris taken some exterior ideas for adapted in your interest.

These ancient cultural and historical chain if ruptured in august 1945.from these year,if when cominzed one new cultural and historical period to present days.

idea of a puppet government,if one analisis of last Dictatorship managed period,in Showa times,but exist some precedents in ancient history and contemporary how Komei Emperor and others,this no represent why all emperors are one Puppet of militarist groups.

if possibly why in certain historical periods(how occured in ancient chinese empires) existing some power groups or advisers with higth political influence why taken control of situation in favour of your cause and rest some political control to Emperor or inclusive the Emperor no poses any political power for stay in hands of these previously mentioned groups.if nature things of political rulings,i similar form occured at Presidents or Prime ministers in democracy too.

What basis is there for this kind of ruler during WWII or even pre-WWII?

these basis if assorted in accord to diffrent period(previous times in Yamato empire,Shogun or Meiji Epoch) or(next period in ww2 times),but poses in common the heavy centralized political absolute power mixing with mesianic religious support by ancient official native religion with some powerfull militarist ancient clans,from primitive times. if certain why poses some limits in certain periods but the powers and decisions are unquestionable for political and divine mandate,if are one dogmatical question.if obvious why no count the present period debt at representative democracy conformed after august 1945.

Furthermore, your article on "War crimes in the Pacific" needs sources....

respect at this i putting the sources represent of mention of editions the WW2 magazine(of primedia group and putting your web page and editors),the founts where proceded these general refference info.

This page is crap

This page is not even remotely to Wikipedia standards. I can imagine a place for a page detailing the development and history of the kind of Japanese group think that culminated in the Pacific War, but this page is crap. At this point, erasing the whole thing and replacing it with a redirect to Japanese nationalism might not be unfounded. To be honest, the whole page reeks of anti-Japanese hysteria to me. --Carl 8 July 2005 03:22 (UTC)

Can you moderate your language? Civility is much valued on Wikipedia. The reason being that we, collectively, are engaged in a project to produce a high-quality encyclopedia. If you think a page is of a low standard, that is all you have to say. If you think the page lacks NPOV, say that. Charles Matthews 09:04, 13 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think both of those things are wrong with this article, and I think so quite strongly. "Crap" is, if anything, too weak of a word to convey the proper depth of my sentiment. Nevertheless, I stand by my word choice. The page is garbage. Call it what you will, but unless the errors are remedied, deletion is the best fate for the page. Using the term "fascism" for things other than the European military governments of the 1930s is loaded POV from the start. To suggest that virtually the entirety of Japanese history be classified as "fascism" is basically needlessly inflammatory. It's fine to chart the roots of Japanese militarism in the Pacific War era to trends beginning much earlier, but to just slap a derogatory label on the whole of Japan is not the Wiki-way. As if the concept of the page weren't bad enough, the content of the page is virtually unreadable due to the poor nature of the grammar and typography used on it. Just looking at the uncapitalized run on sentences makes my eyes glaze over. The page is junk. Either whoever wrote it should fix it or everyone else should scrap it. That's all there is to it. --Carl 07:04, 14 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It has been to VfD. You are entitled to your opinion. If you can read the comment below about an 'aggressive atmosphere', you will see why I'm concerned. Your opinions can perfectly well be expressed without language of the kind you seem to think appropriate. I'm not defending the page content as such. Charles Matthews 08:24, 14 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, maybe I jumped the gun

But I'm still not really sure what you're arguing. This really needs to be edited so native speakers can understand what you're writing. I realize that I end up taking a lot of liberties with what is written, which may not yield the meanings that you intended (which is why you need to post your sources when you have the time).

Una opinion a favor de mi conocido

Como tanto los muertos o los ausentes no pueden defenderse,entonces lo hare yo,la persona que el comisiono,para colocar unos ultimos articulos en ingles acerca de este interesante tema.mi estimado amigo japones-peruano utilizo mi pc personal para hacer sus aportes historicos,y yo solo me limitaba a observar sus analisis.estoy escribiendo en español porque este es mi idioma,se escribir en ingles,pero mi ingles es mucho mas pesimo que mi amigo,como es nacido en sudamerica,tambien sabe fundamentalmente español,con limitado ingles y lo que siempre lamento,no conocer el idioma de sus padres,el japones(espero que alla donde estes tomes tu curso de japones).

estoy de acuerdo con la propuesta de merging de este articulo a el otro que el mismo compuso,Japanese nationalism o tal vez llamarlo Japanese Empire and The Fascism y considero que mi amigo tal vez hubira parecido bien.

el,Mr Ishikawajima ya se fue hace varias semanas y yo me limite a añadir algunas cosas a su articulo que el me pidio antes de irse y debia poner otros articulos,pero debido a esta agresiva atmosfera he decidido no seguir colocando ningun articulo mas.a mi amigo le gustaba la aviacion y la estrategia y politica japonesa,a mi en particular me agrada analizar los planes japoneses contra la URSS y pude leer el articulo de mi amigo cuando el lo estaba escribiendo y quede sorprendido de lo que lei,viendo cosas que no conocia.

lo cierto es que puedo leer bien en ingles,mi gramatica inglesa es mucho peor que la de mi amigo,un japones-peruano nacido en latinoamerica y muy orgulloso de su herencia cultural y su historia, yo soy un latinoamericano muy identificado con el japon y su historia y simpatize con este autor asi como se que este tema no se trata en español,sino que practicamente en ingles y aun asi me gusta leerlo.

me desagradan las opiniones agresivas,aunque por lo que he leido al parecer algunos nativos y otros filo-japoneses(yo tambien soy fanatico filo-japones,me identifico con este pais en el periodo de la guerra del pacifico,cuando participo en Wargames,mis heroes son los Samurai y los Kamikaze,asi tambien tengo muchos amigos de ese pais)les ha molestado que mi conocido haya establecido la conexion historico-cultural-ideologica que seguia como una cadena continua desde los tiempos miticos de Yamato(660 a.C.) hasta el Imperio Showa(Agosto o si tal vez incluso Noviembre de 1945) en la que este noble pais creo desde las raices su fundamento ideologico-politico y cultural en donde las fuerzas armadas imperiales tenian su soporte ideologico durante la guerra del pacifico en lucha contra las fuerzas aliadas.

ante este fundamento de origen nativo,y con aportes chino-coreanos en la epoca Yamato-Fujiwara,se les sumo los aportes europeos en los periodos del Shogunato asi como el desarrollo del pensamiento nacionalista local feudal mas el desarrollo contemporaneo Meiji y la introduccion del Socialismo basico para finalizar en el desarrollo ampliamente conocido por todos del Nacionalismo Japones en la Epoca Showa junto a los aportes Fascistas y Nacionalsocialistas asi como las teorias radicales socialistas locales.y esto yo lo comprendi muy bien mas aun de parte de alguien que estaba bien informado historicamente y tenia contactos con el pais de sus padres.

yo estuve muy admirado de su amplio conocimiento,e incluso me comento de cosas tan sorprendentes como que Japon queria construir un Canal al estilo del de Panama en el Istmo de Kra,durante el tiempo de la guerra del pacifico y tener ese canal bajo control de la armada imperial.

cuanto lamento la gente que piensa que el por escribir lo que hizo lo hizo en contra,todo lo contrario,el estaba muy orgulloso de su historia y nada tiene que ganar con hablar mal de su tierra materna.tambien hago la observacion de que el era evidente que tenia mala grafia y cometia errores gramaticales pero hizo su esfuerzo,dentro de sus limitaciones para presentar esta informacion.

ah ahora si quieren atacarme a mi tambien,haganlo,yo al menos no tengo que sentir la molestia,y pena que mi amigo sintio y le hizo decidir retirarse de seguir colaborando y no volver a escribir(algo natural en un japones,incluso aunque no haya nacido en tierra nativa,por experiencia propia se muy bien lo orgullosos que son y los entiendo),a mi me da igual lo que ustedes piensen de mi,yo solo conozco mis convicciones y se lo mucho que admiro el Dai Nippon,el Gran Imperio Japones y su herencia historico-cultural e ideologica,y nadie me puede quitar eso.

bueno ya el no esta en mi pais,no pudo defenderse como era debido, asi que espero que si el pueda ver esto sepa que este es un alegato a su favor,buena suerte y buen viaje.

Hasta pronto amigo!

Sr.Pedro Joaquin Gonzales

un filo-japones convencido en Latinoamerica.

P.D.:efectivamente,soy latino,hablo español y naci aqui,pero entre mis antepasados hay un antiguo comerciante y dueño de barcos de pesca de origen Japones,asi como tambien mis abuelos me relataron acerca de que conocieron a una familia de pescadores que a su vez eran agentes ocultos Japoneses que respondian a un oficial de la Armada Imperial que residia en mi pais en los tiempos de la guerra,disfrazado como dueño de un aserradero.tambien conozco detalles en ingles acerca del submarino de la clase I-400,el avion Aichi M6A1 Seiran" el bombardero del canal de panama",y el Plan "Hikari" para atacar el Canal de Panama por la ruta atlantica o pacifica.y esto se lo conte a mi amigo peruano-japones antes de irse.por todo esto me siento muy orgulloso de creer en un pais tan especial e importante como lo es Japon.

Please understand that Wikipedia always operates by means of community action, debate, and complete openness. All articles are collective products, not expressions of individual points of view. This process can seem too harsh in some cases. It is however remarkably successful, in the end. All contributions are valued, in fact. A good contributor has, ultimately, to recognise the need for flexibility, in allowing others to comment on and work over contributions. This is part of what we call the wiki way. It should of course be joined to a fundamental respect. That is also part of the wiki way. A third part of our 'way' is to recognise, also, that imperfection is part of the real world. The system is not 100% successful, and can be annoying. But the work continues. Charles Matthews 09:11, 13 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please also understand that en.wikipedia.org is the english-language part of wikipedia. For the spanish version see http://es.wikipedia.org --85.49.234.93 00:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Large edit

The page having become hard to edit, I have moved much of it to a subpage /Old here. The many links are in fact more suitable for a list of topics related to Japanese nationalism, for example. Charles Matthews 09:13, 14 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Needless to say, I am impressed and appreciate your work. But I think we have fundamental problems with articles like this. Take this:

"The Japanese people were motivated by a revival of of ancient ideals and customs. These nostalgic elements of Samurai feudalism, culture, costumes and myths were put in the service of the national belief of Japan's divine mission to control the rest of the Asian continent."

Whether this is true or not, I don't think this is something you expect to find from a general encyclopedia. (but something from wikipedia?) It sounds like a critical analysis by a historian. I am not saying there is no such thing fascism in Japan. I hate to grumble, without editing anything, but I am saying we have to take different approaches. -- Taku 01:35, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

What is Additional comments of Japanese fascism and can we move it to /Old?

I came upon Additional comments of Japanese fascism on the list of Page to be wikified, because somebody had added the wikfy tag to it. It looks like a classic POV attempt to pull out bits of an article into someother place, and doesn't seem to need wikification. Can it be merged into /Old and redirected or, better, deleted? JesseW 01:13, 9 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Per a VfD decision, the "Additional comments" article was deleted. In general, content should not be "forked" to a different page just to preserve disputed content. Whether the content was salvagable or worthless, that decision should have been made on this Talk page. It should not have been sectioned out to a separate article. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Additional comments of Japanese fascism for a record of the discussion. Rossami (talk) 05:28, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Where's the Facism?

Not to suggest Imperial Japan wasn't fascist, but this article does nothing to show it. I realize the definition of fascism is controversial and applied nowadays to a wide range of things, but it seems in tackling Japanese fascism one should narrow the field to Japanese appropriation of European fascist ideas. Too often other ideas, such as ethnic chauvinism, nationalism, militarism and absolutism are conflated with fascism and overwhelm it. This article is a prime example of that. Only three mentions of contact with European fascism I find in a quick overview:

a) "Japanese thought also took on board some collectivist ideas, from contemporary European socialism and Marxism, or social Darwinism. Contact with some European Fascist thinking came later, with the Axis Alliance." It would be nice if this contact was actually discussed later on, or at all.

b) "Sadao Araki and other local thinkers was established these connection of the ancient and contemporary nationalists local and European fascist ideas, to conform the local bases (Japanese fascism), for more later surging the Japanese nationalism (Showa nationalism) Ideology." Huh? I realize there are some non-native speakers involved here, to whom my best advice as an English teacher is to use shorter sentences. Anyway, how did Araki et al. establish these connections? The Araki page barely does a better job of this, mentioning that Sadao Araki read Afred Rosenberg. That means, however, one would need to address the Nazism/Fascism distinction mentioned in the Fascism page.

c) "In the case of Wang Chingwei state, he himself had some German influences, prior to the Japanese invasion of China meeting with German leaders and taking over some fascist ideas already during his Kuomingtang administration times. These he combined with Japanese militarist thinking." This has the same problems as the previous one, plus I would add that a list of key Japanese thinkers, along with primary source quotes, would go a long way to substantiating and clarify these statements.

Towards the end the refrain "Later [something] incorporated European fascism" is repeated no less than three times, without ever explaining it. Keep the Japanese Nationalism on the Japanese Nationalism page and reserve this one for illustrating the connections referred to in the quote above. If I can I'll get an account and help, but for now that's my two cents of feedback.

Changed Tag

This article has changed significantly since the tags were first placed. It looks much cleaner. The changes in the tags are part of a general cleanup work. Only 2 left for Cleanup-date|June 2005, this was no.3. --meatclerk 22:04, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality should be disputed.

I think that the neutrality of this page should be disputed. Associating racism with the far right is prejudiced. In fact, the people I know that have conservative values aren't racist.

I doubt that anyone you know is on the far right. "Far right" does not mean conservative. It means neo-Nazis and other extremists. 16:05, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Category:Japanese Fascists

As "the use of the term fascism in relation to Japan is contentious and disputed" (quoted from Japanese fascism), I don't think it's necessarily appropriate to label any and every Japanese involved in the government or military at the time - even the most high-up officials - a "fascist".

I think this is an important thing for us to get a handle on, and to establish standards or guidelines about. Please offer your thoughts on the matter at Category talk:Japanese fascists. LordAmeth 03:34, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why Shōwa ?

The Shōwa period (1926–1989) and the period of statism in Japan (1868–1945) don’t match. It shoud be renamed to Statism in the pre-war Japan or Statism in the pre-WWII Japan. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 06:54, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think you raise a valid point. The article should be renamed as you say. NickOakley (talk) 12:39, 3 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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