Talk:Start to Finish
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guys, the plot contains some minor inaccuracy; mind if I modify it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.65.211.81 (talk) 20:10, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
"The episode marks Tovah Feldshuh's last appearance as Deanna Monroe as a series regular."
[edit]Uhmm... Source? This seems to happen quite a bit, especially when involving a mid-season finale: a character gets bitten (or dies) and Wikipedia assumes their time on the show is over. Her time is not over: she explicitely states right here that she's in a total of twelve episodes and, as of now, we've only seen her in ten.Cebr1979 (talk) 03:42, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree entirely. And given that the last time we saw her on screen she was very much alive and given the shenanigans the show pulled with Glenn this year and given the weird stuff that has happened with regard to time on other shows like Lost I would go further and say we can never make such declarations until the series finally ends. For all we know season 9 will, like Lost did, feature lots of flashbacks to pre-apocalypse days and we will get to see Shane, Dale, Merle, Hershel, The Governor, and Deanna in many many more episodes as series regulars. "Last" is a word that requires a crystal ball to be used with any confidence on a series still in production. 99.192.69.211 (talk) 22:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Well, no, that doesn't make any sense at all. If we have a source confirming an actor has left the series, then we have a source confirming that an actor has left the series. We don't have that with Tovah Feldshuh so we can't say that.Cebr1979 (talk) 23:10, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Patrick Duffy Played Bobby Ewing, one of the lead characters, on Dallas for eight season. At the end of the eighth season he left the show. He really really left the show. There were a million reliable sources reporting he left the show and they even killed his character. Duffy was really gone and Bobby was really dead. In the season nine finale Bobby mysteriously appeared again. In Season ten it was explained that his death and all of season nine was a dream. Duffy was back playing Bobby as a regular cast member. No, I don't think that The Walking Dead will go that far, but my point is that even if we have a million reliable sources saying that her character is really really dead and she has permanently left the series we still have no way of knowing that she won't be back in a year or two in an extended series of flashbacks, for example. So we do not know (and even the people making the show do not know) if this is her last appearance as Deanna as a series regular until the series actually ends. To know that it is her last appearance as a regular now is to know they won't decide to bring her back in a year or two and it is impossible for anyone to know that. 99.192.69.211 (talk) 01:12, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- ...and if Wikipedia had existed at that time, it would have said, "He left the show at the end of season eight. He really really left the show. Duffy was really gone and Bobby was really dead. In the season nine finale, Bobby mysteriously appeared again. In Season ten, it was explained that his death and all of season nine was a dream. Duffy was back playing Bobby as a regular cast member." You know... like it does now. Lol - it's perfectly fine to say someone is no longer on a show, provided they really are no longer on a show. If they come back, well, then we're just lucky the English language has the words "come" and "back." Without a source saying they ever left in the first place, though (such as we don't have with Deanna and didn't have for Beth), we can't make stuff up on assumptions.Cebr1979 (talk) 03:37, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Ummm ... do you know what the word LAST means? The wording you objected to and quoted in the title of this section was that it was her LAST appearance. In my first comment I explained how we cannot know that it is her LAST appearance until the series ends. You thought that did not make sense. So I explained in detail using an actual example how we can't know it was the LAST appearance. Saying "she left the show" is a different matter entirely, but the text you objected to did not say "Tovah Feldshuh left the show". It said this was her LAST appearance. Of course people can leave and come back. Which is why we cannot say it is the LAST appearance until the series ends. LAST and LEFT are different words with different meanings. They even have two different letters in the middle of them. It's good to know which of those words is used in a passage you quote and object to and which is not. It makes the discussions go easier. 99.192.72.25 (talk) 12:51, 11 December 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.69.211)
- HAHAHAHAHA! You are... I just don't even know? You give a good giggle, though! Thanks for that! LAST can still be LAST until it changes... if it changes... which is something it might or might not do. Hahahaha! *inhale/exhale* Bye.Cebr1979 (talk) 18:46, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Right then, so you don't know what "last" means. It does not mean "last so far but that could change at some time in the future." It means ... well ... last. Whether an appearance is "last" cannot, as you seem to think, change. Wikipedia articles can declare that Jon Bernthal, who plays Shane Walsh, has left the show because he has. It cannot yet say he has made his last appearance as a series regular playing Shane Walsh because we do not know that to be true until the series ends. Words have meanings. "Last" is one of them. Wikipedia should use words accurately, even if you think its a funny idea that it do so. 99.192.76.246 (talk) 23:30, 11 December 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.69.211)
- My LAST birthday was LAST month until my next one next year. This is my LAST comment to you, though, and that won't change. LolCebr1979 (talk) 00:12, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- It was only your "last" birthday in the sense of the word that means the same as "previous" ( as with "last month"). When used that way "last" is an indexical word and what is "last" at one time ceases to be "last" at a later time. But if the word "last" is being used that way for the sentence you objected to then it is actually saying something true. Tovah Feldshuh's appearance as Deanna Monroe in "Start to Finish" was her "last" (="previous") appearance as Deanna. But that is not the sense of the word being used. The sense of the word being used here (and the reason you objected in the first place) is where "last" is being used to mean "final". And to that sense of the word everything I said that you find so mystifying and amusing is true. It's ok that you don't understand what common English words mean. There are often other editors (like me) around to help you out. 99.192.76.246 (talk) 00:50, 12 December 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.69.211)
- Well, here I am back again even after saying I wouldn't respond... lucky you! I really don't like words being put in my mouth so I'm going to correct you on something and then I really won't be back, I won't even read your response if you leave one. I've never had a problem with the word "last" being used, nor have I ever said I have! I (which I have made abundantly clear by saying more than once now and have also explained to you more than once now) had/have a problem with something unsourced being said on Wikipedia. Whether the sentence said it was her last appearance ever... Whether it said it was her last appearance as a series regular but she might come back in season nine after season eight becomes someone's dream... Or whether it said it was her favorite appearance of all time and her favorite color is a lighter shade of purple and she suffers from irritable bowel syndrome which causes her to poop her pants every second Monday of the month... None of the wording behind any of that makes any difference to me! However *dun dun dun...*: Each of those statements are unsourced, so none of them can be said on Wikipedia. That's my only problem. That's only ever been my problem. Word choice? Meh. That's just you. I've never brought that up, nor have I said it. I've never even said anything to imply it. That's always been you. Nobody else. Just you. Bye for real this time, I just really wanted to clear that up (although I shouldn't have needed to 'cause wherever you got that idea from... it certainly wasn't from anything I've said).Cebr1979 (talk) 01:58, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- Well, once again you prove you don't know what "last" means by saying your last (="previous") comment would be your last (="final") one and then commenting a HUGE paragraph anyway, so you will understand when I just don't believe you "won't even read [my] response". Of course you will. You can't help yourself. In that HUGE paragraph you summed up your problem quite well when you wrote, "Word choice? Meh." Yeah, why worry about silly things like word choice when it makes the difference between a true claim and a completely different and false one. It's not like an encyclopedia should strive for anything as silly as accuracy. Now THAT is funny! 99.192.76.246 (talk) 02:55, 12 December 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.69.211)
- Well, here I am back again even after saying I wouldn't respond... lucky you! I really don't like words being put in my mouth so I'm going to correct you on something and then I really won't be back, I won't even read your response if you leave one. I've never had a problem with the word "last" being used, nor have I ever said I have! I (which I have made abundantly clear by saying more than once now and have also explained to you more than once now) had/have a problem with something unsourced being said on Wikipedia. Whether the sentence said it was her last appearance ever... Whether it said it was her last appearance as a series regular but she might come back in season nine after season eight becomes someone's dream... Or whether it said it was her favorite appearance of all time and her favorite color is a lighter shade of purple and she suffers from irritable bowel syndrome which causes her to poop her pants every second Monday of the month... None of the wording behind any of that makes any difference to me! However *dun dun dun...*: Each of those statements are unsourced, so none of them can be said on Wikipedia. That's my only problem. That's only ever been my problem. Word choice? Meh. That's just you. I've never brought that up, nor have I said it. I've never even said anything to imply it. That's always been you. Nobody else. Just you. Bye for real this time, I just really wanted to clear that up (although I shouldn't have needed to 'cause wherever you got that idea from... it certainly wasn't from anything I've said).Cebr1979 (talk) 01:58, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- It was only your "last" birthday in the sense of the word that means the same as "previous" ( as with "last month"). When used that way "last" is an indexical word and what is "last" at one time ceases to be "last" at a later time. But if the word "last" is being used that way for the sentence you objected to then it is actually saying something true. Tovah Feldshuh's appearance as Deanna Monroe in "Start to Finish" was her "last" (="previous") appearance as Deanna. But that is not the sense of the word being used. The sense of the word being used here (and the reason you objected in the first place) is where "last" is being used to mean "final". And to that sense of the word everything I said that you find so mystifying and amusing is true. It's ok that you don't understand what common English words mean. There are often other editors (like me) around to help you out. 99.192.76.246 (talk) 00:50, 12 December 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.69.211)
- My LAST birthday was LAST month until my next one next year. This is my LAST comment to you, though, and that won't change. LolCebr1979 (talk) 00:12, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
- Right then, so you don't know what "last" means. It does not mean "last so far but that could change at some time in the future." It means ... well ... last. Whether an appearance is "last" cannot, as you seem to think, change. Wikipedia articles can declare that Jon Bernthal, who plays Shane Walsh, has left the show because he has. It cannot yet say he has made his last appearance as a series regular playing Shane Walsh because we do not know that to be true until the series ends. Words have meanings. "Last" is one of them. Wikipedia should use words accurately, even if you think its a funny idea that it do so. 99.192.76.246 (talk) 23:30, 11 December 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.69.211)
- HAHAHAHAHA! You are... I just don't even know? You give a good giggle, though! Thanks for that! LAST can still be LAST until it changes... if it changes... which is something it might or might not do. Hahahaha! *inhale/exhale* Bye.Cebr1979 (talk) 18:46, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Ummm ... do you know what the word LAST means? The wording you objected to and quoted in the title of this section was that it was her LAST appearance. In my first comment I explained how we cannot know that it is her LAST appearance until the series ends. You thought that did not make sense. So I explained in detail using an actual example how we can't know it was the LAST appearance. Saying "she left the show" is a different matter entirely, but the text you objected to did not say "Tovah Feldshuh left the show". It said this was her LAST appearance. Of course people can leave and come back. Which is why we cannot say it is the LAST appearance until the series ends. LAST and LEFT are different words with different meanings. They even have two different letters in the middle of them. It's good to know which of those words is used in a passage you quote and object to and which is not. It makes the discussions go easier. 99.192.72.25 (talk) 12:51, 11 December 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.69.211)
- ...and if Wikipedia had existed at that time, it would have said, "He left the show at the end of season eight. He really really left the show. Duffy was really gone and Bobby was really dead. In the season nine finale, Bobby mysteriously appeared again. In Season ten, it was explained that his death and all of season nine was a dream. Duffy was back playing Bobby as a regular cast member." You know... like it does now. Lol - it's perfectly fine to say someone is no longer on a show, provided they really are no longer on a show. If they come back, well, then we're just lucky the English language has the words "come" and "back." Without a source saying they ever left in the first place, though (such as we don't have with Deanna and didn't have for Beth), we can't make stuff up on assumptions.Cebr1979 (talk) 03:37, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Patrick Duffy Played Bobby Ewing, one of the lead characters, on Dallas for eight season. At the end of the eighth season he left the show. He really really left the show. There were a million reliable sources reporting he left the show and they even killed his character. Duffy was really gone and Bobby was really dead. In the season nine finale Bobby mysteriously appeared again. In Season ten it was explained that his death and all of season nine was a dream. Duffy was back playing Bobby as a regular cast member. No, I don't think that The Walking Dead will go that far, but my point is that even if we have a million reliable sources saying that her character is really really dead and she has permanently left the series we still have no way of knowing that she won't be back in a year or two in an extended series of flashbacks, for example. So we do not know (and even the people making the show do not know) if this is her last appearance as Deanna as a series regular until the series actually ends. To know that it is her last appearance as a regular now is to know they won't decide to bring her back in a year or two and it is impossible for anyone to know that. 99.192.69.211 (talk) 01:12, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Well, no, that doesn't make any sense at all. If we have a source confirming an actor has left the series, then we have a source confirming that an actor has left the series. We don't have that with Tovah Feldshuh so we can't say that.Cebr1979 (talk) 23:10, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
Reception. Mixed to negative?
[edit]I haven't made a change on the reception status as I don't require the necessary knowledge as of yet to do so. However I was wondering if reception statuses of this type (that being "mixed to negative," "critical acclaim" etc) are in reference to the general attitude of most reviews (the verdict in this case being mixed to negative) or if it takes an average verdict of many reviews (which of course can have extremely different opinions expressed) that would imply a mixed to negative quality. Cheers. WaakeUpp (talk) 23:14, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
- I believe you're talking about the "Metascore" which assigns specific terms to weighted averages from the review site Metacritic. Hoof Hearted (talk) 21:42, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
It is a post-credit scene
[edit]Noticed this has been a back-and-forth... which surprised me. There's no doubt. First, when the episode made it online, the scene was included, just like every other post-credit scene. Also, when the next episode begins, they kind of just give us the cliff notes before picking up where that scene ended. So, to quote the Saviour guy, "Come on. I mean, can we not? Okay?"--Bacteria (talk) 14:54, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
- This is not a post-credits scene. It's a preview clip. There was nothing in that text that is not in the next episode. It belongs there. It can only be a post-credit scene if it contains story not found in the next episode. We don't put other preview clips into the plot descriptions of preceding episodes. In this case, it wasn't even broadcast by AMC during the hour of Start to Finish, but instead it was first shown well into the hour of The Talking Dead. Saying it's part of Start to Finish is not valid. - Gothicfilm (talk) 15:13, 16 February 2016 (UTC)