Talk:St. Lubentius, Dietkirchen

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A fact from St. Lubentius, Dietkirchen appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 26 February 2018 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the youngest bell of St. Lubentius, Dietkirchen, a Romanesque church on a rock, was consecrated by Pope John Paul II?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2018/February. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/St. Lubentius, Dietkirchen.

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Infobox

I say we must have an infobox. Asap. RFC anybody? ;-)?♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:17, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for not acting sooner ;) - Do you think "giving" and "taking away" should be treated the same way? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:51, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"A collegiate is documented in 841"

Hi, I'm not sure this sentence makes much sense: A collegiate is documented in 841 (in #History). Does it mean the collegiate church was documented to have been constructed in 841, or that it was first documented in 841? Please inform me if I am missing anything. Cheers, Anarchyte (work | talk) 12:45, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we have two problems: that the German is much more detailed, and that we have no link (or I didn't find it) to the people of a colleagiate, not the church. "Erstmals erwähnt wird das Lubentiusstift in einer Urkunde vom 13. Mai 841, die jedoch nur in einer Abschrift aus dem 17. Jahrhundert überliefert ist. Ihr Wahrheitsgehalt wird allerdings allgemein nicht bezweifelt. Die Urkunde erwähnt auch Dietkirchen namentlich zum ersten Mal und erlaubt aufgrund ihres Inhaltes einer Schenkung an das Stift die Aussage, dass dieses bereits vor 841 bestanden haben muss. Dies stimmt zufriedenstellend mit dem vermuteten Zeitraum der Reliquienüberführung überein." (The collegiate is first mentioned in a document (Schenkungsurkunde) of 13 May 841 which is only extant in a copy from the 17th century, but is believed to be authentic. The document also mentions Dietkirchen for the first time. The donation to the collegiate means that it probably existed before this date. ...) - It says NOTHING about the building. Should we just remove the link? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:05, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If it's unsourced, then it could either be removed or be tagged with {{fact}}. To be honest, I'm leaning towards the latter as it's mentioned in more places than just de:St. Lubentius (Dietkirchen) (and here). In Dietkirchen, it says the following (unsourced, of course): The first mention of the collegiate church of St. Lubentius dates to 841. It was built between 830 and 838. The parish counted around 425 souls at the time. According to archaeological finds, it replaced an earlier stone parish church built in about 720, which itself had replaced a wooden predecessor probably built as early as 580. I don't speak a word of German so I'd be no help finding sources. It's up to you, though. Anarchyte (work | talk) 13:14, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know where got that from, but the sentence I quoted does NOT mention church, so I removed the link. The document is a donation to an organisation. - I have a few other things to do, like searching for refs for Georg Christian Schemelli, - no end to unsourced German articles, sadly. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:36, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Article name - church? basilica? St?

Can we discuss the best name for this article? It seems to be about the parish church of St Lubentius in Dietkirchen. To the extent it makes sense to draw a distinction, the article does not deal with the parish.

The Italian wikipedia has its article at it:Chiesa di San Lubenzio (Dietkirchen). But the convention for naming articles in the German wikipedia seem to be to leave "kirche" or whatever off.

Its own website calls it the "Pfarrkirche St. Lubentius" but says it is also known as the "St. Lubentius-Basilika". Other sources refer to it as a basilica too. Our article on Dietkirchen has a section on the "St. Lubentius Basilica". There is also a redirect at Dietkirchen Abbey.

There does not seem to be much consistency on the naming conventions for our articles on churches in Germany: for example Category:Roman Catholic churches in Hesse includes St. Michael's Church, Fulda but also St. Jakobus, Rüdesheim. Some of the articles on German churches include the word "church" (or cathedral, or basilica, or whatever) and some do not.

(The usual convention in British English is to leave out the stop after "St", eg St Paul's Cathedral. I'd prefer to leave it off, but I see most of the other articles on German churchs include it, "St.". Another alternative is to spell out "Saint Lubentius".)

Perhaps our article should be at Church of St Lubentius, Dietkirchen /St Lubentius Church, Dietkirchen or St Lubentius Basilica / Basilica of St Lubentius? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.251.215 (talk) 15:20, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I feel that the simple name is the best international compromise when a building and parish is not world famous. Keep simple. There are many others of this format. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:35, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Adding, with a bit more time: "Saint" would be French, the German word spelled out would be "Sankt". The English, but only the English, omit the full stop, while the Americans use it. Consistency is not what Wikipedia is good at ;) - Look at St. John's Church, for example. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:25, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Saint" is also English, and independent of gender (the French have "Sainte" too). "St / St." is only an abbreviation, but a common one, particularly in the names of churches or towns. The "St / St." difference seems to be a Commonwealth one: for example, the Australians generally use "St" too. But that is a side issue.

Looking at St. John's Church (or indeed St Peter's Church or St Mary's Church) it is easy to see that the large majority of the articles listed there include the words "church" or "cathedral" or equivalent somewhere in the name of the article. Even most of the ones in Germany, such as St. John's Church, Lüneburg or St. Peter's Church, Hamburg or St. Mary's Church, Berlin.

That said, the large majority of articles here (in English) on churches in Italy seem to go without. See for example List of churches in Venice or Churches of Rome. But in the most part they have untranslated Italian names, such as San Basso or Santa Sabina (but compare it:Chieza di San Basso (Venezia) and it:Basilica di Santa Sabina).

Looking at the sources (there are very few in English, but the more recent ones tend to say "Church of St Lubentius" and the older ones refer to the "old church of Dietkirchen") and our other articles, it seems to me that the name of this article should include the word "church" or "basilica". You seem to disagree. I wonder if any other passing readers would like to offer an opinion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.251.215 (talk) 22:03, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You say it best: there are very few sources in English. When there are many sources in English, such as for Cologne Cathedral, I'd go with the English name as the common name, but if there are only few, the common name is the German, with as little German as possible ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:19, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]