Talk:Srebrenica massacre/Archive 24

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Question about added words in quote

In the section "Starvation in Srebrenica 1992–1993," a Red Beret is quoted as saying

"The local people became quite indignant, so sometimes we would keep someone alive to hand over to them [to kill] just to keep them happy."

Why are the words "to kill" added in brackets? I could find no evidence in the original article that back up this clarification. Evanf32 (talk) 23:23, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

It is implied that the 'kept' prisoners are solely to satisfy the locals' blood lust " Because it was these same raiding parties out of Srebrenica that occasionally killed Serb civilians, Nenad and his comrades had a simple policy: “No prisoners. … … In fact, there was the occasional exception to this rule. With the Srpska soldiers’ no-prisoners policy, local Serbs who wanted revenge for the Bosnian soldiers’ raiding parties were being denied the opportunity. “The local people became quite indignant,” Nenad explained, “so sometimes we would keep someone alive to hand over to them just to keep them happy.”

I agree though that the quote isn't clearly summarised.Pincrete (talk) 05:24, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Are the locals in question Bosniaks or Serbs? Evanf32 (talk) 16:39, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

local Serbs who wanted revenge for the Bosnian soldiers’ raiding parties were being denied the opportunity. “Pincrete (talk) 17:39, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Denial Section

Has the whole denial section become a literal denial forefront? Are we just to list every single individual who says something in that favor? Or should it be a board where more prominent an individual is the more the denial becomes literal? I'm not seeing such a section in Rwandan genocide. Bilseric (talk) 00:10, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Bilseric, I'm not sure that I understand your point. Denial of Srebrenica has varied over time and extent. In the early days, before mass graves, and other proofs, were found for example there were more people questioning both the nature or scale of the massacre. Others have not or do not dispute mass killings, but for various reasons, sometimes 'technical', sometimes probably political, dispute the term 'genocide'. Comparisons with other events, such as Rwanda, aren't necessarily helpful if the events are different in character, or in how/when they have been 'denied' or 'downplayed'.Pincrete (talk) 06:08, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I've partially reinstated the April 2024 Yahel Vilan comments, correcting errors and removing off-topic elements, such as comparisons to Gaza, which aren't in the source or relevant. Pincrete (talk) 06:44, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

No, I wasn't trying to compare the evens with Rwanda, but articles. Do we really need to list everyone's statement who said something in denial of the genocide. I think it would be ok to generally mention denial of relevant parties. But to list every single individual who says something is just too much. Bilseric (talk) 14:06, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I see you have been long involved in the article, so I won't revert. Bilseric (talk) 14:10, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I value your view, and acknowledge the issues with the initial revision I made.

In the interview the subject makes direct parallels between Srebrenica and Gaza, a fact I thought relevant to the basis of the denial.

Unfortunately Wikipedia will not allow me to add the citation in which the subject makes the direct comparison to Gaza, as it comes from a source Wikipedia does not consider reliable by default. Whilst I would normally avoid such sources because of this unreliability, as they are quoting their exclusive interview with the subject directly I thought it sufficiently reliable.

Until I can discover a way of appropriately citing the interview that doesn’t come afoul of Wiki’s citing barriers I’ll leave your revision. Thundabru (talk) 15:10, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

But, why do you feel that quote is needed in the article? It's made by an individual who isn't much relevant in my opinion. Should we quote every individual? Wouldn't that make this section too long? Bilseric (talk) 16:03, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree about the Gaza quote, since it is borderline off-topic. I don't understand your objection to the 'individuals', especially when these people hold official positions and therefore to a degree are speaking from a semi-official stance. What should we say in your opinion that represents the range and degree of denial? Pincrete (talk) 05:39, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think he shared official opinion of Israel. I believe Israel's official stand is not in support of denial which this edit might imply. If I'm correct, then I would expect Israel (if they haven't done so yet) to officially denounce this opinion as individual and that should then accompany the initial edit in the article. This is what I meant by individual, that is, it not being an official stand of Israel. I haven't done much research to be honest, but I can't imagine that's a position of state of Israel. And If so, what is the relevance of this individual statement at all? Bilseric (talk) 10:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it is probably not an official Israeli state position, but it is a belief expressed by someone in an official role - "speaking from a semi-official stance". Pincrete (talk) 19:17, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

That is without doubt true. This individual had said that, I'm just not sure which interpretation that has for readers. My opinion is that this statement should be accompanied by the rebuttal from Israel's ministry of exterior. I'll try to find sources as I believe those should exist. This is because I've seen this statement being used by those who do actually deny the genocide in support of their stand. If that is one of the interpretation , a rebuttal would help to understand that denial is not widespread opinion in Israel nor an official stand. Bilseric (talk) 19:31, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

More important, this individual had said much more, that it is an official stand of Israel by saying "Israel has never accepted that the crime in Srebrenica be called genocide" [1] Bilseric (talk) 21:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I tied, but cannot find statement from ministry of exterior. Usually, when some ambassador says something that is not in line with official stand , the ministry issues a statement which often describes the ambassador's statement as "individual". I've seen it many times. It may be a good idea to give it some time until more sources are available. Bilseric (talk) 21:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I do still feel the whole section is becoming too long. Bilseric (talk) 21:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Reducing length

It's above the 15,000 readable prose guideline. I've cut it down from 19,000 by removing duplication, condensing. Any other duplication editors can see? I asked chatgpt4o and then edited its suggestions:

• "Summarize the "Conflict in Eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina" section. focus on the most relevant points leading up to the massacre.
• Remove repetitive historical context already mentioned elsewhere.
• Ethnic Cleansing: Provide a brief overview of ethnic tensions without extensive historical details.
• Massacre Events. focus on the main events, such as the takeover of Srebrenica and subsequent killings. Condense descriptions of individual incidents.
• Refugee Concentrations: Summarize the conditions and actions at Potočari without detailed accounts of every incident.
• Reduce the detail in "Trials and convictions," focusing on major trials and outcomes.
• International Responses: Condense the reactions and reports from international bodies into a concise overview.
• Analyses: Summarize key points of analysis without detailed argumentation. Denial and Controversies: Mention significant instances of without extensive detail.
• Aftermath: Condense sections on "Burial and discovery" and "Investigations" to the key findings.
• Summarize the international response, removing detailed reactions
• Shorten sections on memorials and commemorations, focusing on the most significant ones.

this will reduce word count significantly, while maintaining integrity and core information. keep sentences concise and avoid repetitive information." Which are core details and non-core? Please remove/condense those you think are non-core? Tom B (talk) 14:33, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the article would benefit from a thorough pruning and tidying and a fresh set of eyes. I'm afraid chatgpt4o might as well be Martian to me, so I can't comment on its efficacy, but this overview appears to me to be a sound appraisal. The devil of course will always be in the detail. Good luck. Pincrete (talk) 19:14, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

thank you, ChatGPT is a type of artificial intelligence, Tom B (talk) 22:05, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

That much I understood! Pincrete (talk) 07:04, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Srebrenica genocide

I suggest that we rename this article to "Srebrenica Genocide" now that the UN has issued its resolution on the matter today, designating July 11 as the International Day of Reflection and Commemoration of the 1995 Genocide in Srebrenica. Njamu (talk) 20:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed 69.123.67.182 (talk) 00:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I Agree with that. To retain a current title name would be in a way denial of genocide act in Srebrenica.

Article titles are based on WP:COMMONNAME, that is the name the reader is most likely to use. What courts say or what the UN says is recorded within the article, but has no bearing on the title chosen. The last time this issue came up, which if I remember correctly was about 5 or so years ago, it was deemed that 'massacre' was still more common than 'genocide' among the public. I think there are various reasons for that, including that various names had established themselves long before any 'genocide' rulings were made, so those names tended to stick. But the reasons for common use are academic from our PoV, Holodomor and Holocaust are the common names of two historic events, not 'Ukranian genocide of the 1920s' or 'Jewish genocide during WWII'.

I've never understand the logic that 'massacre' is somehow denying or minimising anything, 'massacre' is mass murder, 'genocide' is mass murder with a particular intent, in this instance the intent to eliminate an ethnic group within a specific region, and making their re-establishment in that region unviable (this was the essence of the court ruling on Srebrenica), to call it 'denial' is effectively saying "mass murder is OK as long as you don't do it with intent to destroy the 'race' in that area".

I'm not going to voice an opinion at this stage about renaming, it's possible that the pendulum has now swung towards 'genocide' being the more normal name, but I'm not sure, but I thought it useful to explain the logic of this - and other - article names. There is a procedure for renaming an article, which I suggest anyone/everyone employ if they wish to rename. In order for such a renaming to happen, it's important that the new name have widespread support, as the present one has previously had. Unilateral renames will simply be reverted and are a gigantic waste of time and editorial goodwill. Pincrete (talk) 04:09, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

@Njamu Agree X8001iaakklllll (talk) 07:59, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello. The UN only confirmed what was already obvious. The article's title does not change the status of this event. As Pincrete pointed out, massacre and genocide are not mutually exclusive here. Both terms accurately describe the event. Wikipedia's article titles are based on the majority of English-language sources. I see no evidence that this event is currently more commonly called "Srebrenica genocide." If that changes in the future, the article's title will be updated too. StephenMacky1 (talk) 13:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree Per the UN resolution adopted yesterday. --Λeternus ^(talk) 13:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

UN resolutions have no bearing on article titles and would be ignored in the event of a formal renaming discussion. Also, contrary to what a 'renamer' argued, the UN did not say it wasn't a massacre, which is the form of the killing, much as genocide is its legal designation of its intent. The two are not mutually exclusive any more than 'poisoning' and 'homicide' are. Pincrete (talk) 15:37, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree. The common name policy means article names should indeed reflect what the reader is most likely to use rather than necessarily suggesting that the UN terminology is binding for this site, but the fact the UN calls it a genocide is just the latest in a long series of established entities referring to the Srebrenica genocide as the Srebrenica genocide. The UN call it the Srebrenica genocide, memorials in the city call it the Srebrenica genocide, the general public refers to it as the Srebrenica genocide. I am not a bureaucrat of this site, so perhaps I misunderstand the criteria, but it seems bizarre to see people citing the common name policy to defend the continued name that most users are now less likely to use (and have been less likely to for some time). 122141510 (talk) 22:30, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Not sure why it's not already named that as most of the world already calls it a genocide. Now with the UN resolution keeping the name of the article seems odd to say the least. Seems like political interference in Wikipedia. Xzpx (talk) 03:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

The evidence, as recently as about 5 years ago, was that the WP:COMMONNAME was 'massacre'. I'm not going to take any opinion on this at this time, but would need to see more than anecdotal impressions that this has changed substantially.

My own impression was that other names had established themselves before 'genocide' began to be used, but perhaps that has now changed. As I've said previously, I fail to see how recording the massacre of 8000++ unarmed men and boys is denying anything, except not specifying the racial motive. Seems like political interference in Wikipedia, remarks like that are unhelpful and not based on fact AFAIK. I have no reason to believe that anyone involved with this article long-ish term has even a hint of 'denialist' motives, but we are an encyclopedia, not an advocacy or memorialist site - regardless of how 'worthy' such may be.

'Official' names don't in themselves mean very much. Someone should mount an 'renaming' discussion if they want to affect a change as only a new formal discussion can overturn the old one. Pincrete (talk) 04:18, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, it seems bizarre to cite a common name policy to defend the continued naming of an article by something other than its current common name. Here, you are feigning neutrality with the guise of bureaucratically-minded diligence, but all your posts are throwing up roadblocks. 122141510 (talk) 22:29, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Just follow normal procedure which is to start a renaming discussion. There you will have ample oppurtunity to offer evidence that the "current common name" has changed, not simply demand that your own anecdotal assessment be obeyed, or offer specious arguments about the UN etc. . I'm offering sound advice about what must necessarily happen with such a high-profile name change, and your response is to impugn my motives. If you want the current name to stay forever, just continue to behave in like fashion! I don't after all object to the present name and am satisfied that it was (but may no longer be), the proper policy-based article name. It isn't me that wants a name change you know! Don't shoot the messenger! Pincrete (talk) 03:55, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok, we found out you disagree with 'genocide' term. Let's hear others. Njamu (talk) 12:52, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I haven't expressed any opinion except that in the past it wasn't the COMMONNAME, but may well have become more common. That's demonstrably factually correct. I'm even old enough to remember when it was just referred to as "the fall of Srebrenica" or "the aftermath of the fall of Srebrenica", when it was only clear that terrible events had happened, but not clear what the nature and scale of those events was.

The advocates of a name change aren't going to properly affect such a substantial change without starting a formal renaming procedure and proving COMMONNAME has changed - a handful of (previously uninvolved) editors agreeing with each other's irrelevant arguments on talk doesn't 'cut the mustard'. But hey, just shoot the messenger! Pincrete (talk) 19:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

You keep claiming neutrality, but have taken time out of your day several times to respond to posts citing policies as a reason why the name cannot easily be changed. You took affront at me "impugn[ing]" some possible motives, but continue to do exactly that, and are now dismissing any arguments except yours as "irrelevant". I stand by what I said earlier – you are feigning neutrality, but rather support the current name, and cite existing policies as a reason it would be difficult to exchange. If you really had no horse in this race, instead of repeatedly citing why it cannot be explained, you might begin to cite resources or even actively assist in getting the ball rolling on investigating how to get the name changed. From your own testimony, you are obviously more familiar with Wikipedia policies than the rest of us – after all, according to you, we are but a bunch of previously uninvolved editors agreeing with each others irrelevant arguments, and we'll never "cut the mustard." So are you going to help or are you going to keep throwing up obstacles? If it's the latter, then as Njamu said, your comments are available for anyone to read, they do not need to repeated ad nauseum. --122141510 (talk) 06:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I created move page request below: Talk:Srebrenica massacre#Requested move 2 June 2024 Njamu (talk) 06:57, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Arguments such as 'how the UN refers to the incident' are wholly irrelevant to how WP articles are named. If you don't want to know how to affect the change you want to see, at least don't 'shoot the messenger'!

It is simply a fact that articles with long-established names, with controversial associations attached to them, aren't changed on the basis of a few "previously uninvolved editors agreeing with each other" on talk because they all anecdotally think the COMMONNAME has changed and they all morally think it ought to change, for reasons not based on WP policy and practice.

Personally I don't care that much what the title is as long as the article records as accurately as possible what happened and as long as the name is the one most readers are likely to recognise. I'm not certain what that is any longer. Others clearly feel they are certain. Pincrete (talk) 07:21, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I disagree because the Srebrenica massacre was only one part of the larger Bosnian Genocide that took place over a four year span from 1991-1995. 166.196.79.20 (talk) 16:27, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I Agree with that. because Srebrenica genocide is a historical fact. Genocide is not about numbers (although 8,000 summarily executed is a large number), it's about intent. For anyone who analyzed international judgments, the intent was clear with written order from then the President of RS himself. We need to stop arguing and we need to agree that basic historical facts cannot be changed. Srebrenica genocide is the proper name. Thank you for giving me opportunity to vote on this subject. I hope my fellow Serbs will also vote in favour of Srebrenica genocide. 24.87.14.45 (talk) 17:13, 18 June 2024 (UTC)