Talk:Square (video game company)/GA1

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Reviewer: Shooterwalker (talk · contribs) 02:30, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'll pick this one up. It's a long one and probably will take a lot of work. But it's worth it, considering its importance. Shooterwalker (talk) 02:30, 30 May 2023 (UTC) Origins "Square was initially established in September 1983 as a software subsidiary of electric power conglomerate Den-Yu-Sha, a company led by Kuniichi Miyamoto" -> "Square was initially established in September 1983 as a software subsidiary Den-Yu-Sha, an electric power conglomerate led by Kuniichi Miyamoto." Done. "After considering different career paths," -> can strike this (it's implied) Done. maybe link Glossary of golf? Done. "keep up with the increasingly complex video game development process fuelled by rapid advancements in computing" -> "keep up with advances in computing and video game development" Done. " Internet café-like salon" -> How was the salon like an internet cafe? this is a little confusing, and might need to either be elaborated, or dropped. Dropped the internet cafe bit, and linked salon. 1985–1987: First games, Final Fantasy " Square's first attempt at a game, and Sakaguchi's first project, was an adaptation of the television game show Torin-ingen" -> "Square's first attempt at a game was an adaptation of the television game show Torin-ingen, (which also became Sakaguchi's first video game project)." (is noting Sakuguchi's inexperience important here?) I just dropped the Sakaguchi bit, it wasn't important. "A noted reason for the shift to Famicom development was its more stable hardware compared to PCs, which were constantly undergoing changes to their components and requiring adjustments for different set-ups" - > "The company shifted to developing for the Famicom to benefit from its stable hardware, compared to the constantly changing components of PCs." Done. "work in" -> "operate" Done. "Square was officially founded as an independent company" -> this is a little confusing, since they'd already been established as a subsidiary of another company. Did they secure their independence somehow? Did my best here. May need some more tweaking. I couldn't find exact details when I was reworking the article, but I can do a search. " Square supported Nintendo's Famicom Disk System, though few of the games created for it were major successes and Square began struggling financially." -> "Square continued producing games for Nintendo's Famicom, though their lack of commercial success led them to struggle financially." Here I must contest a little. The statement is explicitly in relation to the Famicom Disk System, not Famicom in general. I've reworked it to be less wordy. "Miyamoto brought together the company's four directors and asked for game proposals the staff would later vote on" -> "Miyamoto asked the company's four directors for game proposals, with plans to have their staff vote on the best idea." Done. "Sakaguchi wanted to develop a role-playing video game (RPG), a proposal that had been made feasible due to the production and success of Dragon Quest from Enix." -> "Sakaguchi proposed making a role-playing video game (RPG), believing it to be a viable project after the success of Dragon Quest by Enix." Done. Certainly, the first Final Fantasy had some success in the U.S. as well? Added a citation for that. We'll tackle this in a few phases. I appreciate that this article is about a company, but it might be useful to know even a little bit more about the games that they created. Shooterwalker (talk) 01:48, 2 June 2023 (UTC) @Shooterwalker: Addressed as many of the above points as possible. --ProtoDrake (talk) 08:49, 2 June 2023 (UTC) Thanks for your edits. This might take a while but we're making progress. 1987–1995: Expansion and notable staff "These and all other projects at Square during the period were developed for Nintendo consoles, including the portable Game Boy." -> "These were among a string of projects that Square produced exclusively for Nintendo consoles, including the portable Game Boy." Done. "Takechi's secondment lasted until 1994, by which time Square had annual sales worth ¥16 million per year, and he had become inspired by Sakaguchi's vision for the company" -> the last sentence fragment feels tacked on. Maybe drop it or move it. "The company reached annual sales of ¥16 million per year in 1994, while Takechi became inspired by Sakaguchi's vision, with his secondment ending that same year." Dropped. "Besides Final Fantasy, other projects were produced which led to their own series" -> "As the Final Fantasy series became a featured property for the company, Square produced other projects that became successful series of their own." Done. "Super Mario RPG, produced in collaboration with Nintendo using characters from the Mario franchise;[39] and the Western-exclusive Secret of Evermore.[40]" -> drop the semi-colons and just make this its own sentence. "Other stand-alone titles included the Western-exclusive Secret of Evermore, and the Mario-themed "Super Mario RPG" co-produced with Nintendo." Done. "Speaking in 2001, Sakaguchi noted that while Final Fantasy was the company's most recognized property, Square's cultivation of several other series meant that it did not have to rely on Final Fantasy to be profitable.[41]" -> "Reflecting on this period, Sakaguchi noted that Final Fantasy was the company's most recognized property, while celebrating the fact that the company would still be profitable on the merits of their other successful game series." (while the source is from 2001, highlighting that date starts to distract from the clean timeline you have here.) Done. "Additional staff joined Square by the 1990s" -> say "early 1990s" or "mid 1990s" just to help keep the timeline clear Done. The last paragraph has a lot of "X, who worked on A B C". I would honestly prefer if this was integrated into the previous paragraph, where we learn of each hire as they join each notable project. History sections tend to function best when the timeline is clear, and people can understand the sequence of events as they happen. Alternatively, I might try to find a cleaner phrasing or try to parse the last down. Perhaps "The company gained several notable hires. X became a developer for A, Y joined as an artist for B and C, Z wrote dialog for D". Something tighter. Reworked/rewrote this big. 1995–2000: Move to PlayStation, The Spirits Within "A combination of hardware limitations, Nintendo's decision to continue using cartridge games over a CD format for the Nintendo 64, and rising cartridge prices prompted Square to move the in-production Final Fantasy VII and their other ongoing projects onto Sony's PlayStation" -> "With the production of Final Fantasy VII, Square decided to shift their projects to Sony's new Playstation console, prompted by the affordability of CD-ROM distribution, compared to Nintendo's continued use of expensive cartridges." Done. "Square's final Super Famicom release was Sting Entertainment's Treasure Hunter G, and their first PlayStation release was Tobal No. 1 from DreamFactory, both in 1996" -> "In 1996, Square's final project with Nintendo was Sting Entertainment's Treasure Hunter G for the Super Famicom, while the company debuted DreamFactory's Tobal No. 1 for the Playstation that same year." Done. "A licensing agreement with Sony was signed in 1996, under which Sony published Square's next six games in the West" -> "Soon after, the company signed a licensing agreement with Sony, who gained the exclusive right to publish Square's next six games in the West." Done. "Among the staff that worked on Final Fantasy VII were Kitase as director, Naora as art director, Nomura as a lead artist, and Nojima as scenario writer." -> "Meanwhile, the company continued working on Final Fantasy VII, with Kitase as director, Naora as art director, Nomura as a lead artist, and Nojima as scenario writer." The previous sentence is probably a better time for a paragraph break. (First paragraph, business dealings. Second paragraph, breakthrough game and creative decisions." Done. Some commercial / critical figures around FF7 would be useful for context. This was a big deal. The commercial figures cause edit wars so I'd rather not, and I didn't want to be too specific in an article about the company as a whole. "Hirata, after holding an administrative position during the Nintendo years, became a game production lead, focusing on introducing new genres into Square's library" -> Hirata went from an administrative position to lead producer, focusing on diversifying Square's library into new game genres." Done. "created or renewed" -> one thing at a time, just for organization. Let's start with "created", and introduce "renewed" later. Done. "mid-1990s" -> I'd say late 90s. It's fuzzy, but the games came out in 1998, and it helps distinguish it from the previous section. Done. "Also during the mid-to-late 1990s" -> "Around this time" Done. "While their relations with Nintendo remained poor" -> let's be specific here. Assuming they didn't produce anything for Nintendo in this time, let's try "As the company passed on working with Nintendo," or even, "As the company was estranged from Nintendo". Done. "Support for the PlayStation continued late into its lifecycle with multiple releases including Threads of Fate (1999) and Vagrant Story (2000)" -> "Late in the PlayStation's lifecycle, Square continued to support the console with multiple releases, such as Threads of Fate (1999) and Vagrant Story (2000)." Done. "platform to host online services for their games host the company's online store and web content as well as online services for their games" -> "a digital storefront and a platform for online game services and web content". Done. "Sakaguchi was mostly based in Hawaii by this point" -> is this important? Dropped. In terms of organization, it makes more sense to include the film production stuff with the next section, where you talk about its release and failure. (I'd also argue that it makes more sense to end this section with the end of the Playstation lifecycle, if that timeline lines up.) Done. We can pause there. Thanks again for your work and your patience. Shooterwalker (talk) 20:20, 8 June 2023 (UTC) @Shooterwalker: Done all but one above, which may need discussion. --ProtoDrake (talk) 21:56, 8 June 2023 (UTC) That sounds good. These suggestions are important in aggregate, but no single suggestion is important. We'll keep going. 2000–2003: The Spirits Within, final years "During this period, Sakaguchi also created the concept for Final Fantasy XI, the company's first MMORPG, developed by the Chrono team and led by Ishii. Final Fantasy XI and its first expansion was Kato's last work for Square before leaving in 2002 to go freelance." -> this statement sort of breaks the flow. You talk about Final Fantasy X in the next paragraph. It happened in 2002, and the film was released in 2001. It's easier to follow the thread (and the timeline) by sticking with the film production and release. " Due to their still precarious financial situation and the softening console rivalry between Sony and Nintendo with the release of Microsoft's Xbox, Square successfully reached out to Nintendo to begin development for their hardware again. Square began development on Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles for the GameCube in late 2001." -> "After evaluating their precarious finances and the changing fronts in the console wars, Square decided to re-open discussions with Nintendo for the first time since the mid-1990s. Their talks were successful, leading to the development of Final Fantasy Chronicles for the GameCube in late 2001." "Under Wada, the company underwent restructuring with the intent of streamlining production and resources, and cutting development costs to increase profits" -> "Under Wada, the company underwent restructuring in order to streamline production, cut development costs, and increase profits." "It also began production on a direct sequel to Final Fantasy X, titled Final Fantasy X-2 (2003); this broke with the common approach under Sakaguchi, who disliked direct sequels" -> "Square also began production on Final Fantasy X-2 (2003), breaking with the company's history by becoming the first direct sequel to a Final Fantasy game." "Another project in development at the time was Kingdom Hearts (2002), Nomura's directorial debut." -> "Around this time, Square also began development on Kingdom Hearts (2002), with Nomura making his directorial debut." "A merger with rival company Enix had been under discussion since 2000, but Square's financial losses prompted Enix to halt discussions." -> I see the logic in adding this here. But it may make more logical and chronological sense earlier, where the financial troubles are mentioned. It might give readers more context as to why they took Sony as an investor, and rekindled their relationship with Nintendo. It also has a nice bookend to the section -- foreshadow Enix as a potential partner at the start of this section, and then ending with the deal actually going through. "Despite this, some shareholders had doubts about the merger, notably Miyamoto, who would find himself holding significantly less shares and having a smaller controlling stake if the deal went ahead as initially planned" -> "Despite this, the merger had its skeptics, particularly Miyamoto who did not want to see his controlling stake diluted in a merged company." "The merger resulted in Square Enix being" -> "Square Enix was" This whole part needed some rewriting and rearranging for the sake of chronology and brevity. Hopefully I've addressed all your points above as part of this. Development structure and publishing " described Square as "[doing] everything by itself" compared to Enix's tradition of outsourcing development" -> "contrasted Enix's tradition of outsourcing development versus Square's approach to developing "everything by itself"." Done. "During Square's first years" -> "When Square was founded in the early 1980s," (just need to signpost the return to history) Done. " After the first couple of years, there were two loosely-defined production groups led by Sakaguchi and Tanaka respectively" -> "This eventually evolved into two loosely-defined production groups, led by Sakaguchi and Tanaka, respectively." Done. " seven development divisions, expanded to eight that year" -> "eight development divisions," Done. "A notable third-party game localized and published by Square in North America was the original Breath of Fire, as developer Capcom had a busy schedule at the time" -> "One of the few North American releases was the original Breath of Fire by Capcom, who was busy enough to outsource publishing and localization to Square." The timeline here is a bit confusing. It would be more clear to talk about their lack of presence in North America, followed by their success at self-publishing and working with Nintendo, and concluding with their Playstation years. Slowly but surely we'll get there. Thanks again for your work and your patience. Shooterwalker (talk) 00:44, 12 June 2023 (UTC) @Shooterwalker: Did my best. For your final point above, I needed another re-arrange/rewrite to try and get it more chronological in nature. I also needed to separate the localization bits out into their own section. --ProtoDrake (talk) 14:26, 12 June 2023 (UTC) We're making progress. Let's keep going. "Standing for "Advanced QUality Entertainment and Sports", and also acting as an anagram of Square's name, the brand was intended for publishing non-RPG titles such as sports games." -> "The name was an anagram of Square's name, as well as an acronym for "Advanced QUality Entertainment and Sports", representing the company's diversification outside of role-playing games." "That same year, DigiCube was also established. Founded by Square as a product distributor through convenience stores in Japan, it expanded ..." -> "That same year, Square established a distribution company called DigiCube, with convenience stores as their main strategy. The subsidiary expanded..." "Square's first Western branch, SquareSoft, was established in 1989 in Redmond, Washington for publishing and development support" -> "In 1989, Square established SquareSoft in Redmond, Washington, to provide development and publishing support in the West." "In 1994, coinciding with the move away from Nintendo, the subsidiary was moved to Marina del Rey, California and redubbed Square LA, renamed Square USA the following year" -> "As Square shifted its orientation towards Playstation in 1994, their American subsidiary moved to Marina del Rey, California, while changing its name twice in one year, to Square LA followed by Square USA." "before in turn being shut down in 2002 following a failed attempt to find a film studio partner" -> Easiest just to make this its own sentence, for readability and flow. "North American and Japanese" -> drop this, since you clarify this detail in the phrase that follows. "the North American branch Square Electronic Arts published Square's titles in the region, while the Japanese branch Electronic Arts Square focused on releases from Electronic Arts" -> "Square Electronic Arts published Square titles in North America, while Electronic Arts Square published Electronic Arts titles in Japan." Affiliates and acquisitions " The coalition was formed to pool financial resources, as individual development for the then-small companies would have been potentially crippling" -> "This coalition was able to pool financial resources, allowing them to overcome the prohibitive costs of acting individually." "helped establish" -> or just "establish"? (unless their role is something other than direct, in which case it should be clarified) "A later subsidiary called Escape was established" -> try to avoid passive voice, since it starts to conceal who is doing what. I'm guessing this was Square doing the establishing, but it's not clear considering the number of different companies involved. "until 2000" -> this might be more than a minor detail. if there was a short relationship, it's good to know how it started and ended. The chronology here seems a little muddled. Sometimes this works if there's a clearer way to organize it, but right now it feels scattered. "due to their support of the property" -> what kind of support? That's another good place to pause. We're almost through a first pass. Shooterwalker (talk) 01:23, 13 June 2023 (UTC) @Shooterwalker: All above sorted, hopefully. --ProtoDrake (talk) 12:45, 13 June 2023 (UTC) Let's continue. Legacy A lot of the statements about the specific games seem to be too specific for an article that's really aobut the company. What's missing is broadly the reception of Square as a studio, publisher, and company. The goal is to follow a WP:PYRAMID flow, with the specific highlights coming after the studio's broad reputation. I know that last point might take a lot of work. The company's legacy does feel like a significant omission, but it probably feels more absent due to the focus on specific games. Another strategy would be just to remove those specifics entirely, or move them into the company's history as each release is mentioned. That's the best I could scrape together. I just cut it. Related studios "Several former Square staff members " -> "Many Square employees" (former is implied) " sometimes working with Square Enix in later years" -> this is an exception that maybe should be removed, and/or mentioned later as it comes up " Kikuta, frustrated at the rigid hierarchy of Square, -> "Frustrated with Square's rigid hierarchy, Kikuta..." "Takahashi and Tanaka, along with other Xenogears developers who wanted to work outside the Final Fantasy series, founded Monolith Soft in 1999 and went on to develop multiple projects, including further Xeno titles" -> "Several Xenogears developers, including Takahashi and Tanaka, founded Monolith Soft in 1999 in order to pursue projects outside the Final Fantasy series, including additional Xeno titles." " Nishi and a few others he knew founded several studios over the years including" -> "Nishi founded several studios after leaving Square, including..." Isn't Nishi one of the earlier people to leave? I just want to get the timeline right. "Mizuno founded developer AlphaDream in 2000, with Fujioka joining soon after; the company is best known for its work on the Mario & Luigi series" -> "In 2000, Mizuno founded AlphaDream with Fujioka joining soon after, producing successful series such as Mario & Luigi." "in Hawaii" -> doesn't seem that important "Sakaguchi, following a period of low morale after the failure of The Spirits Within, decided to re-enter game development. He founded Mistwalker in 2004, which has since produced series such as Blue Dragon and Terra Wars and standalone projects such as Lost Odyssey and The Last Story. After" -> "After stepping down as president in 2001, Sakaguchi experienced a period of low morale before returning to game development, founding Mistwalker in 2004. The studio became known for the Blue Dragon and Terra Wars series, as well as stand-alone projects such as Lost Odyssey and The Last Story." That should wrap-up the first pass. I'm optimistic that we can do a second pass in one last shot, to catch any lingering issues. Thanks again for your work. Shooterwalker (talk) 22:25, 14 June 2023 (UTC) @Shooterwalker: Did my best to address all of the above where I could. --ProtoDrake (talk) 22:58, 14 June 2023 (UTC) I appreciate all the patience and work so far. I'm doing one last pass for the lead, and any lingering issues. Lead Both lists of names sort of means nothing to the average reader. Even as a fan of many square games, it doesn't mean much to me. I wouldn't criticize this too hard, but I might add more context (artists X,Y and Z, writers A and B), and/or really hone in on the key people. Done. "After several other projects, all of these employees would work on Final Fantasy, a 1987 game for the Nintendo Entertainment System which would bring commercial and critical success and launch a franchise of the same name." -> "Initially producing action games, the team experienced a breakthrough success with Final Fantasy in 1987. A role-playing game for the Nintendo Entertainment System, it became the first in a series of critically and commercial successful games." Done. "developed or published" -> and/or? Settled on "and" "Many staff leftover the years and founded other studios, including" -> "Over the years, many staff left to found studios such as" Done. "In the early 2000s", I might be specific about the date for the film, since so much of this is tied to The Spirits Within. Done. "Prior to this, a merger had been discussed with Enix, the noted publisher of the Dragon Quest series." -> "This disrupted merger discussions with Enix, the publisher known for the Dragon Quest series." Done. "Following a delay due to the failure of The Spirits Within, the merger went ahead on April 1, 2003, with the new company taking on the name Square Enix." - > "Following the commercial success of Final Fantasy X and Kingdom Hearts, Square and Enix resumed negotiations, leading to the merger of the two companies on April 1, 2003." Rewritten. History "eventually decided on computer software development" -> "eventually became a software developer" Done. "Among those hired through this method were Hironobu Sakaguchi and Hiromichi Tanaka, who originally worked there part-time during their university studies, and" -> "This led to hiring part-time university students Hironobu Sakaguchi and Hiromichi Tanaka, as well as" Done. the Death Trap games probably deserve just a little more context as to what they were, even just a few categorical terms for their setting ("war?") and gameplay ("action?", "shooter"?) Done. similar comments for Thexder and King's Knight Done. "company completed a licensing agreement" -> "company negotiated a licensing agreement" Done. "commercial failures" - which games were commercial failures? Unfortunately not. "produced other projects" -> "produced additional projects" Done. "A lesser-known property was the Japan-exclusive real-time strategy series Hanjuku Hero, which began in 1988 and parodied conventions of the RPG genre. " -> this one technically came first, and as a single sentence, would have a better flow at the start of the paragraph Done. "The music staff of Square also expanded" -> "Square also hired additional music staff" (avoid passive voice) Done. cartridges probably need a blue link, for people who want to learn more Done. "Square worked in parallel" -> "Square also worked" Rewrote as "continued work". "writer.Among" -> needs a space Forgot to delete the old text as well, sorted. Final Fantasy VII's breakthrough status feels somewhat understated, but I understand the risk in starting down that path. "with Microsoft's Xbox, " -> "due to Microsoft's Xbox," Done. "It also began production" -> "Square also began production" Done. Structure " close to the launch of the Super Nintendo" -> "near the end of the life cycle of the Nintendo Entertainment System" (just for clarity) Done. I think separate out the structure and publishing sections, rather than pushing them together under a single heading. (Or, if anything, the publishers fit more with its subsidiaries, given how many of them provided distribution services.) Moved the publishing bit into subsidiaries, and renamed it to "Publishing and subsidiaries". Since localization's less of a focused department thing, I kept that were it was. Related studios "Kameoka and other developers who worked on Legend of Mana (1999) founded Brownie Brown in 2000, and ended up working with Square Enix on the Mana series with Sword of Mana." -> this one feels awkwardly phrased, and might just be easier to say in two sentences. Split and rewritten a little. This might be a stretch goal or featured article property, but maybe one or two sentences about what ultimately happened to the merged company might be useful. It probably would be, but SQEX is such a...big thing, I'm not sure where to begin. That should cover most of it. We're almost at the finish line. Shooterwalker (talk) 20:27, 16 June 2023 (UTC) @Shooterwalker: Hope it's all addressed. --ProtoDrake (talk) 21:10, 16 June 2023 (UTC) Thanks for all your patience and work on this. This is now GA quality. Keep up the good work. Shooterwalker (talk) 14:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)