Talk:Spyromilios

The way that the term Northern Epirus exists next to Himara in the case of a Greek general is obvious since 1. the region is called as such by Greeks, thus making it essential under this context, 2. Geograpgical definition of N.Epirus includes Himara region. A typical quote of a official EU report [[1]].Alexikoua (talk) 14:00, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, this is not an argument. You cannot travel in time back and forth. What was his place of birth called when he was born is what matters. Not what Greeks, Turks, or Englishmen call that place later in time. Burridheut (talk) 21:33, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Northern Epirus

Alexikoua how can this man be born in Northern Epirus when that imaginary territory was first called with that name in 1913, while this man died 33 years earlier? Please clarify your claim, since you reverted my edit.Burridheut (talk) 21:25, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Northern Epirus as term was used quite earlier, since it derives from Epirus, a term which is widely used from antiquity in literature. You can take a look at the correspodent articles, which are well sourced on the subject of terminology. According to your rationale, there should be no reference to Albania prior to 1913, or reference to Greek prior to 1821 (years of declaration of independence respectevily). Another example is Chameria, according to same rationale any reference should be completely removed from every article because it never self-declared indepenence. Alexikoua (talk) 22:55, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

A source of that time mentions Chimara, not Northern Epirus. NE become a term later with the Greek claim for the area after Greece took only half of Epirus. See below what Milingen says.Mondiad (talk) 15:12, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Ethnicity

Apparently Julius Milingen in his "Memoirs on Greece", a testimony of the Revolution period clearly states that he was Albanian.[2] He refers to him as Spiro Milio, not Spiromilos.

“ A few days after our arrival in this village, Spiro Milio presented himself to Mavrocordato, with a corps of two hundred picked Chimariots, the most martial-looking men in the whole army. They are not to be distinguished from Albanians, their dress and language being perfectly similar; but though their religion is Greek, they do not understand one syllable of Romaic. This young man belonged to some of the best families in the Chimara mountains.

His uncle, who during many years served as major in the Albanian regiment in the service of Naples, took him, when a youth, over to that country, where he remained several years. He was brave and disinterested; and every Philhellene, that knew him, could not forbear exclaiming, “Happy were Greece, did she possess more men like this!”

” — Julius Milingen, Momoirs on Greece, Chapter XXIV, p.209

Well, the name is irrelevant, foreigners at the time anglicized the Greek names variously. It is like saying that Kapodistrias was not Greek because his name is Italian, from Capo d'Istria, which is indeed the way he is spelled in many works of the period. Ditto on the "Albanian regiment", which despite its name recruited freely from the populations of Albania and Epirus, and included both Albanians and Greeks (and everything in between) in its ranks. Now the first two bolded quotes are more substantial as pieces of evidence, but there is good reason to distrust such blanket statements such as "they do not understand one syllable of Romaic" that smack rather of romantic folklore than any actual scientific observation. Can we find a corroborating source for the fact that Spyromilios himself, as opposed to his men, spoke no Greek at all when he came south to fight? Otherwise I have no objection to including this quote as a whole, in the article, provided it is properly attributed. Constantine ✍ 15:44, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

The text is quite readable and you can have a look yourself. I don't see why Milingen should differ Spyromilo from the rest of Himariots, i.e they don't speak but does speak Greek. Mondiad (talk16:26, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

The text is also outdated as 19th century crap too & no wonder modern authors never took seriously this claim, if Romaic means Greek in general (as you claim) and not the Hellenistic Koine/Archaich Greek which was commonly used by the Greek elite that time.Alexikoua (talk) 16:59, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Mondiad I suggest you follow wp:HISTRS. Especially this approach [[3]] degrading an academic reference because the author is Greek is something you need to reconsider too.Alexikoua (talk) 17:05, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

The reason I seek a corroborating source is because the text is unclear, and because ethnicity in the Ottoman period is not clear-cut. Sure, we can infer that he also talks about Spiromilios, but it is our inference, it is not explicitly stated. Most of the local Orthodox elites of the time spoke Greek as they had attended Greek schools, or had at least some scraps of the language from the liturgy. Where they Greeks, or Greek-speakers? Some were more Hellenized than others, that is sure. Given the well-attested fact that Himara was a centre of Greek-language education at the time, and the tendency of even non-Grecophone local elites to send their children to Greek schools (partly because there were no others available) it is very unlikely that the blanket statement about understanding Romaic is 100% true. That is why primary sources need to be treated with caution, and must be accompanied by analysis by secondary or tertiary sources. Constantine ✍ 17:47, 14 October 2015 (UTC)