Talk:Spuyten Duyvil, Bronx

Is it an upper-middle-class neighborhood?

The article had characterized the community as "an upper-middle-class neighborhood of the Bronx", a characterization that I removed, and that User:Beyond My Ken reinserted. As stated in my revert, there is no source whatsover and no basis of comparison how this is being measured and even the article for upper middle class acknowledges that "There is considerable debate as to how the upper middle class might be defined." The neighborhood is upper middle class compared to what? Other Bronx neighborhoods? New York City? United States? The World? The article has no data on income, let alone any comparison that might justify it. Nor are there any sources that show that the characterization is supported or that other levels in the social strata might apply. It's inclusion in the lead to define the neighborhood is wrong. Alansohn (talk) 14:40, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Fortunately, we don't have to decide for ourselves what "upper middle-class" means. In fact, we're not allowed to do that, since it would be flagrant original research. All we have to do is provide sources which say that it is upper middle-class, and I have now done so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:18, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

... with two bullshit sources. One is a press release and the other a vegan restaurant guide. BMK, you know how to find real sources and all you're doing here is making a point. Alansohn (talk) 18:33, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

The origin of the name Spuyten Duyvil

Yesterday I ( a Dutchman) contributed some information about another possible origin of the name. why did you revert it, with no explanation? The typical combination of spuyten and duyvil is very specific. All the Dutch (and the other European) immigrants were familiar with the phenomenon of spuitende duivels, rain spouting devils along the roofs of the medieval churches in their homeland, they were everywhere and still are. With the combination of these two words, every Dutchman in those days could only have thought of these spouts and nothing else.

The current explanation with a devil as a reference to wild tidal water is more or less poetical. More realistic would be a rock formation in the creek with half open pipes shaped by the water, that worked as rapids and sounded as the rain spouting devils in their rainy homeland. What else could have given such a spouting effect to the water? It was around Marble Hill you know, with a soft type of marble that will be found under water level too. Inwood Hill is the other outcropping of the same soft dolomite marble. This explanation should be added to the other ones, because spouting devils existed centuries before this creek got the same name and people should know they could be the origin of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qabol (talk • contribs) 00:14, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Qabol It wasn't reverted with no explanation. What you did is called WP:Original research (OR) and it's not allowed. All information on Wikipedia needs to be supported by citations from reliable sources. Your own knowledge is not sufficient, nor are your assumptions or evaluations about the current information acceptable for inclusion. Find a source that supports your contention(s), and you can add it into the mix, but not without. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:52, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Ken, you are right. I will send the name Spuyten Duyvil as a question to a Dutch etymological magazine. Qabol (talk) 22:46, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

What would be best is if they had published something on the subject before, because it won't be enough for you to come back and say "They said...", since we can't confirm it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:53, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Prof. Rob Rentenaar, head of the onomastics section of the P. J. Meertens Institute (Amsterdam), on the name Spuyten Duyvil

Pages 122-147 of David L. Gold's Studies in Etymology and Etiology (With Emphasis on Germanic, Jewish, Romance, and Slavic Languages). Selected and Edited, with a Foreword, by Félix Rodríguez González and Antonio Lillo Buades (Alicante. Publicaciones de la Universidad de Alicante, 2009) are devoted to the etymology of the English place name Spuyten Duyvil.

One must call it an "English place name" because, though its original form was presumably a Dutch name, that Dutch name cannot now be fully recovered from the many forms that the English one has taken over the years.

Rob Rentenaar was professor of onomastics at the University of Amsterdam, head of the onomastics section of the P. J. Meertens Institute (Amsterdam), and president of the International Council of Onomastic Sciences from 1996 to 1999. Needless to say, his specialty was Dutch names (place names, personal names, etc.).

Rentenaar's examination of the material concerning Spuyten Duyvil (David L. Gold gathered the material and published it in the above-mentioned book) led him (Rentenaar) to conclude (pp. 145-146) that Duyvil means 'devil' (but he could not decide whether in a literal or a transferred sense) and that the meaning of Spuyten could not be pinned down because its original Dutch form cannot be determined from the many variants of the first element of the name (Spuyten, etc.).

It would be good if someone read Gold's article (it is by far the most detailed treatment of the name to appear so far) and published a summary here.S. Valkemirer (talk) 03:24, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

If you have it and have read it, then why don't you summarize it for the article? Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:31, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

OK, most of the appendix is available on Google Books [1], so I'll summarize it myself. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:39, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Here and on Spuyten Duyvil Creek. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:00, 31 March 2021 (UTC)