Talk:Spaldeen

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If anyone can augment the new article on stoop ball, that would be great.

--Epeefleche 16:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead. Wahkeenah 18:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that I may have taken it about as far as I can at the moment! --Epeefleche 21:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Spalding in italian means bouncy

so that could be a place where the name originated." There is no Italian word resembling distantly "spalding" and meaning distantly "bouncy". Or is an indian peacock bouncy? In Italy "Spalding" was known as one company producing tennis rackets and skiers. The "spaldeen" ball and game, and the Spalding baseball balls are known to specialists, but nobody uses "spalding" as an adjektive. And if it were, the name would obviously come from the company name and not the other way round. 2.209.84.112 (talk) 17:18, 9 March 2011 (UTC) Marco Pagliero - Berlin[reply]

Personal reflection

I recall playing with a pink Spalding ball in The Bronx (NYC) before and during World War Two. I lived on the Grand Concourse near Yankee Stadium. The ball was expensive -- 10 cents. A bunch of boys (usually 10) had to chip in to buy it. Is my 77-year-old mind playing tricks? But I am certain that it pre-dates 1949 the source of which is the company that bought out Spalding. In 1949 I was a year away from being drafted into the Army and the Korean Police Action. And I surely wasn't bouncing any Spaldeen off the stoop on the eastside of Manhattan. Fred Robson. frepat@hotmail.com 8/22/2006

are you still alive? Snarevox (talk) 04:48, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation

I added a note about the pronunciation: the accent is on the second syllable: Spal-DEEN. I didn't use IPA as many Wikipedia articles do, because I don't know how to do that, so if anyone knows how to do it and believes that it ought to be changed, please do so. But even without IPA, the pronunciation is an important fact. It's not obvious from the spelling, and ought to be explained. Omc (talk) 05:56, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, but it would be nice if we could find a source for that. Andrevan@ 09:02, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I heard this pronunciation a few days ago on a program called "New York Street Games" on public television in New York (either Channel 13 WNET or Channel 21 WLIW). (Program description: "People from all over the globe settled in New York in the early 1900s, and their children shared the games they played in the city streets. This program is a look back at when things were simpler and creativity was a prerequisite to play. With Regis Philbin, Ray Romano, Mike Starr, Joe Pantoliano, Whoopi Goldberg and others who share their stories and recall how childhood street games impacted their lives. Narrated by Hector Elizondro.") All the New Yorkers on the program said it this way. My friend, who grew up in the Bronx, also pronounces it this way. Dictionary.com seems to confirm this pronunciation. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spaldeen Omc (talk) 18:34, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Spaldeen in italian means bouncy

I deleted this statement. I have found no confirmation for it after checking a couple of Italian dictionaries (such as Pons.eu).I also checked with a native Italian, who's not familiar with the word. Of course it could be a regional or dialect word that was brought to New York by Italian immigrants. But I think we'd need a source for that before we include it in the article. Omc (talk) 18:34, 9 March 2011 (UTC) P.S. This seems to be confirmed by Marco Pagliero, who wrote a comment on this issue at almost exactly the same time. Omc (talk) 18:50, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Spaldeen accent

Hi @Wolfdog, being sold in a bodega, does not imply "Latino English." That doesn't appear in the source that I can see. Please provide it if you have that. There are many bodegas and although the term bodega may be a Spanish term, there are bodegas and delis in other communities as well. So I think it's too much of a stretch to say that bodega implies Latino English. The source only seems to say NYC (actually says Brooklyn) accent. The NYC accent had many contributions to it from Jewish, Italian, Irish, Greek, and many other immigrant communities. Andrevan@ 23:22, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's no difference between a NYC and Brooklyn accent (and, of course, one is inside the other). I admit that the Spanish-language influence is implied rather than said directly, and I admittedly have no better source. (We're talking about the mid-20th century, when it is unlikely that any outside the Spanish-speaking community would call convenience stores "bodegas".) However, at the least, we ought to remove use of the word accent from the sentence. There is nothing about a New York accent (i.e. the fairly stable and predictable phonology of New York City English speakers) that makes "ding" into "deen". (Interestingly, though, this is a phonological phenomenon reported in California and other Western dialects of English.) It's a one-off peculiar phonological change in a single lexical item that I believe is likely influenced by Spanish, but perhaps is influenced simply by playfulness or a lack of spelling knowledge among working-class kids at the time. But at the very least, it's not influenced by New York City English per se as a dialect. Wolfdog (talk) 23:41, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed to a "Brooklyn pronounciation" since that's what the source says. If you find an example of the Spanish influence, let me know or go ahead and add it. It's not usable for the article but anecdotally, it was also called a Spaldeen in the Jewish neighborhoods of Queens where my grandparents on one side grew up. They did have bodegas and delis [though I have no idea if they used the word bodega at the time, nor does the article say], and they did do the vowel sounds thing with "ding" -> "deen." I've also anecdotally heard this in the New Jersey accent and Long Island accents, but my connection to it is the New York Jewish accent. I'm not a linguist and I'm not sure how comprehensive our coverage is of these other accents/dialects, but we must avoid original research in the article. For now, let's try to hew closely to what the source says. I'd love to see more sources on this article, but they are hard to come by. Andrevan@ 23:59, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes a source can be wrong or misleading. The source I've given you above shows how there is no meaningful distinction between Jersey, Long Island, or NYC accents. I'm going to change the wording to something I think we can both stand behind. (We don't want to imply this is the Brooklyn/NYC-dialect way of pronouncing words like this; it's just a pronunciation of this particular word originating in Brooklyn, if that makes sense.) Let me know if there is any further contention. Wolfdog (talk) 00:17, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes that is fine. I have seen the statements from sources that the NYC metro accents are all the same, but that's not true of my experience and I believe it is an oversimplification. Regardless, it's not relevant here. Andrevan@ 00:33, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The idea that NJ, Manhattan, Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, and Long Island accents are all the same, and differing classes, ethnic groups and generations in those places are all the same, is quite wrong. Think Bugs Bunny. Pure Brooklyn, white, streets, 1930s, 40s. "ehhh, yaw brudda blows bubble gum!" You wouldn't have heard this accent in South Queens. Certainly not in New Jersey. Think of the accents on the Sopranos. NJ Italian Americans and Long Island Italian Americans quite close but not exactly the same: Italian neighborhoods between: didn't sound that way. Mario Cuomo Queens had a different accent from his son Andrew (Queens). Spaldeen was a Brooklyn invention that spread. You can call it NYC but I grew up using one on Long Island, literally first town over the border from Queens, and we never used that word for it, we called it a Spalding. Passerpiccolo (talk) 18:06, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's all fine, but we can only write what the sources say, not your personal recollections Andre🚐 18:57, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

a pennsy pinkie and the spaldeen are not the same thing, at all.

according to the racquetball museum, the pennsy pinkie was developed by pennsylvania athletic products, now known as penn, it was used as the official ball for the very first racquetball nationals in milwaukee. the pinkie did not last long, as it was used only between the sobek ball and the seamco balls. there is reportedly only one authentic pennsy pinkie left in existence, and although similar, it is an altogether different ball than the spaldeen, which is made by a different company.

i feel like this is an important distinction to make, as they are not interchangeable and apparently, they never have been.

i am unsure whether the best course of action going forward would be to add a statement to the article referencing this distinction, or if it would be more appropriate to just remove the couple sentences claiming the spaldeen is "also known as" the pensie pinkie.. i checked cited references and couldnt find any mention of the two items being confused for one another, in name or otherwise.

if somebody knows something contradictory to this that i do not, please feel free to reply and i will happily stand down.

thank you. Snarevox (talk) 05:31, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think you need a source that they are different. The sources cited refer to them as similar or roughly synonymous. I just went through them a couple months ago. See references 1,3,4, and the Penn Racquet Sports article. Andre🚐 19:38, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrevan: yes, i did look at those cited references. according to the reference i offered https://racquetballmuseum.com/balls-pennsylvania-pinkie (which i dont know if it is considered to be a reliable source), while they may have similar appearances, it shows and explains very clearly how they are not interchangeable. especially since there is only one authentic pennsy known to still be in existence. either way, its not a big deal to me, i just thought id offer up what i found in the name of overall accuracy. thanks for replying! Snarevox (talk) 07:02, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I direct you both to article by George Vecsey in NYTimes in 1983 when the Spalding ball was being discontinued (revived again in the mid 1990s) in the last paragraph of which his brother confirms that the Pennsy Pinkie was a different ball, very slightly larger ()in my memory a millimeter or two at most) and bouncier. It also cost more (in 1970, as I recollect, 18 cents vs 25 cents). I remember this distinctly myself as my friends and I used both in our punchball games in the schoolyard. I remember having to go to a store a few blocks farther from home to get the Pennsy Pinkie. So I will give you here the URL and try to find a way to attach the photo I have of the Pennsy Pinkie which makes it demonstrably clear it's a different ball.

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/07/25/sports/no-headline-055910.html?searchResultPosition=4 2600:4040:935B:F700:ACD3:CD66:186C:9411 (talk) 17:50, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You can see the Pennsy Pinkie photograph, which I believe comes from the Racquet Ball Museum but I don't know via what provenance, here, on a Wordpress Blog. CLEARLY a different ball. You can see a couple of other images if you search the term on Google under 'images'.

https://theupsizers.wordpress.com/2014/06/11/entry-347-wide-world-of-american-sports/ Passerpiccolo (talk) 18:13, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. It's the same ball. Just different manufacturer and logo. Andre🚐 18:56, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spalding is a company; Penn Inc, formerly Penn Racquet Sports or some such, is a different company. These products were NEVER made by the same company. They were never in any of their specs (size, weight, elasticity) the same product. What possible source are you using for this information? And: the New York Times isn't a source? (Back then, the Times had a copy desk that rigorously checked this information... not like today.) Meanwhile the misinformation in this article has spread like a virus, word for word, across the internet and will never be eradicated, which is a shame. It's totally wrong. Passerpiccolo (talk) 22:37, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A spaldeen is a generic term for any bouncy pink ball, including the pensie pinkie, which was made by another company. The article explains this, and also cites its sources. Andre🚐 02:10, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]