Talk:Southern Low German

North Low Saxon

Moved from the article as it was poorly sourced:

Oldenburgisch and Bremenisch are grouped together.^[1]

^ Holz, Maria-Carina (2007). Plattdeutsch in der Schule: Die wesentlichen Merkmale des Plattdeutschen, deren Einflüsse auf die Schüler sowie Bedeutung von Dialekt für die Lehrerrolle – via www.grin.com. A Hausarbeit (Hauptseminar), i.e. a seminar paper.

While not necessarily incorrect, the source is very poor: a seminar paper.

Source: "Ein Beispiel stellt das Nordniedersächsische dar, das in das Ostfriesische, Emsländische, Bremisch-Oldenburgische, Hamburgische, Holsteinische und Schleswigsche untergliedert werden kann."

giving as source: Lindow et al., 1998, S. 18-19.

That would be good source. -02:15, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Clusters

Moved from the article as it was unsourced:

"The Lower Rhine dialects (along with a part of Westniederdeutsch spoken in North Rhine-Westphalia) form both the smallest (geographically) and most heterogeneous (linguistic) cluster of the five main clusters within Germany” relates only to pronunciation. It's not just that Low Rhenish, which is combined into a cluster with some parts of Westphalia and other parts of Germany bordering to the Netherlands.

What's the source? And why are there quotation marks?

In Lameli's work heterogen (incl. inflections and comparison forms) doesn't occur.
Hermann Niebaum, Jürgen Macha, Einführung in die Dialektologie des Deutschen, 3rd ed., 2014, p. 104: "Auf der Karte sind ebenfalls drei Hauptgebiete, erkennbar, die sich, wie Nerbonne/Siedle (2005:[...]) festellen, „im Wesentlichen mit den Verteilungen des Nieder-, Ostmittel- und Oberdeutschen (Cluster 1, 4 und 5) nach traditioneller Einteilung decken, sowie ein heterogenes Gebiet im Westen, das in etwa Ripuarisch (Cluster 3) und Niederrheinisch-Westmünderländisch (Cluster 2) entspricht.“
That's only heterogeneous and not "smallest (geographically) and most heterogeneous (linguistic)".
And it's another classification, cp.
- Lameli:
  - Niederdeutsch
    - nördliches Niederdeutsch
      - Westniederdeutsch: Westmünsterländisch, Münsterländisch, Emsländisch sowie die Dialekte der Grafschaft Bentheim und der Landkreise Cloppenburg und Vechta
      - Nordniederdeutsch
      - Nordostniederdeutsch
      - Brandenburgisch
    - südliches Niederdeutsch: Westfälisch & Ostfälisch
  - Westdeutsch: Niederfränkisch & Mittelfränkisch [note: Mittelfränkisch is usually included in Mitteldeutsch]
  - Hochdeutsch: Mitteldeutsch & Oberdeutsch (both further divided)
- Clusters in Niebaum/Macha:
  - 1: Niederdeutsch
  - 2: Niederrheinisch-Westmünsterländisch [note: Westmünsterländisch usually belongs to Niederdeutsch]
  - 3: Ripuarisch
  - 4: Ostmitteldeutsch
  - 5: Oberdeutsch

-02:48, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

External links → Dutch stuff

Might be interesting, but is off-topic:

figures 8 and 9 are on classification of dialects in the Netherlands, Belgium and French Flanders
A-dendrogram-derived-from-the-distance-matrix-based-on-unweighted-Manhattan-distance
Marco René Spruit: Classifying Dutch dialects using a syntactic measure: The perceptual Daan and Blok dialect map revisited
Figure 5 is a map on syntactic variation in the Netherlands, Belgium and French Flanders.
Wilbert Heeringa, John Nerbonne, Peter Kleiweg: De analyse van uitspraakverschillen in Nederlandse en Friese taalvariëteiten (PDF)
Outdated classification of Dutch dialects
R. Belemans, J. Kruijsen, J. Van Keymeulen: Gebiedsindeling van de zuidelijk-Nederlandse dialecten
Phonetic variation of dialects in the Netherlands and Belgium

--15:56, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Dutch Low Saxon

Why is this mentioned here?
Several Wikipedia articles, but without any sources, state that some Dutch LG dialects are North Low Saxon while others are Westphalian.
However: In Lameli's uncommon classification, it's thus:

Southern Low German
- Eastphalian
- Westphalian in a strict sense (South and East Westphalian, not including Westmünsterländisch and Münsterländisch)
Northern Low German
- West Low German (among others including the areas of Westmünsterländisch and Münsterländisch)
- North Low German (similar to Northern Low Saxon)
- other varities in the east/north-east

Lameli's Westphalian borders to Northern LG (West LG and North LG) and Low Franconian, but it doesn't even have a border with Dutch LG; and the whole Southern LG too doesn't have a border with Dutch LG.
Hence better places to handle it are: Dutch Low Saxon, West Low German or Low German.
However: Note that the whole paragraph is without any sources, possible OR, sometimes somewhat off-topic (e.g. "Modern Dutch developed from Middle Dutch", "mutual intelligibility does not have to be guaranteed"). --08:57, 13 September 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.221.40.167 (talk)

There are different scholarly opinions whether Westphalian is spoken in the Netherlands.Sarcelles (talk) 18:38, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's claimed in Wikipedia, but is without any sources.
But regardless of that: The article Southern Low German covers Lameli's concept of Southern Low German, which is Lameli's Westphalian and Eastphalian. Lamli's Westphalian only includes East-Westphalian and South-Westphalian, but not Münsterländisch and Westmünderlisch. It also does not include Dutch LG and doesn't even have a border with it. His South LG also does not include Dutch LG as a different sub-dialect or has a border with it. Thus: Dutch LG is off-topic for this article. --10:44, 16 September 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.221.40.167 (talk)

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