Talk:Soccer in South Africa

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Image:World Cup 2010 logo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

To reflect the more common local usage in South Africa, at least traditionally, of the term 'soccer' over 'football'. Mayumashu (talk) 05:11, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all the other "soccer"-using countries' articles are named similarly. Recury (talk) 20:51, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal

The article on South African football league system would seem to make more sense as part of an overall article on soccer in South Africa rather than sitting as a separate article. -- Whpq (talk) 21:08, 7 April 2010 (UTC) Articles now merged. 14GTR (talk) 11:25, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure). Jenks24 (talk) 23:14, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Soccer in South Africa → Football in South Africa – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:50, 2 May 2011 (UTC) The national association is the South African Football Association, the national teams all have the word football in their names. The other countries which have their association football article listed as soccer, USA, Austraila, Ireland, each have a dominate code of football which uses that name. In South Africa, association football is the dominate code of football. The word football 'always' refers to association football in South Africa. While the word soccer is sometimes used in South Africa, it is not used to diffirentiad football from other sports. Crazydude22 (talk) 12:21, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your nominations does not jive with the following (unreferenced) section of the Names for association football article[1]:

In South Africa, "soccer" is the more common name, used by all cultural groups when speaking English. The domestic first division is the Premier Soccer League and both in conversation and the media (see e.g. The Sowetan or Independent Online), the term "soccer" is used almost exclusively. The largest stadium used at the 2010 FIFA World Cup, held in South Africa, was known as Soccer City. Despite this, the country's national association is called the South African Football Association and "football" might occasionally be used in official contexts.

Something needs to give. — AjaxSmack 02:04, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose It appears that in South African English, "soccer" is the name of this game, per AjaxSmack. 65.94.45.160 (talk) 05:03, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's not only SAFA which uses the word football. Note that all the SA club's pages are listed as football clubs. Also, local associations are also listed as football associations, see [2] , [3], [4]. In South Africa, the two terms are interchangable.
- No, in the context of soccer, the two terms are interchangeable, in South Africa as in the rest of the world. But in the broader context, soccer is a proper subset of football. Article titles operate in the broadest possible context within English. Andrewa (talk) 23:38, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Soccer is the most common name for the sport in South Africa. --Carioca (talk) 19:36, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. This is not just about what the South Africans may consider the best article title, it's about helping the whole English-speaking world to find this article about South Africa. To any Aussie, Football in South Africa is what the Springboks play. And there even seems doubt as to the accuracy of the claim that soccer is the dominant meaning of football in South Africa (I'm sure many soccer fans wish it were, as do most Australian soccer fans wish and often even claim that it is here... but it ain't). Andrewa (talk) 13:56, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment While the term football can refer to different sports in different countries, in SA it almost always refers to Association Football. Other than perhaps a few ex-pats who have moved to SA, when someone says football they mean association football. The notion that another other sport in SA is more likely to be the dominant mean of the word football is simply not true. A simple google search would prove that. Crazydude22 (talk) 17:24, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Two problems there. First and most important, this article is to be read by all English speakers, not just those from South Africa. Second, the best interpretation of the data so far is not that any code is the dominant mean of the word football (sic) but that none is. Andrewa (talk) 22:54, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move

The name of the article should be changed to Association football in South Africa. “Association football” is the official name of the sport, so the article must be renamed to reflect this. “Soccer” may be a popular name for the sport in South Africa, but it’s not the official name used to refer to the sport, not at least by the governing body of the sport in the country. Association football in New Zealand also uses a similar title, even though “soccer” is the most popular name of the sport in New Zealand. It only makes sense to move the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LordNkosi (talk • contribs) 20:58, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: See the previous discussion above in favour of Soccer in South Africa. Wikipedia uses Common names, not 'official' names. Greenman (talk) 21:19, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In the article itself, the sport is referred to as “football” and “association football”, not “soccer”. The only instances where the word “soccer” is mentioned is if it forms part of the name of a governing body or professional league. Clearly Common names are not being used in the content of the article, so why should the article title differ? LordNkosi (talk) 21:40, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I am neutral on this, but LordNkosi should not have moved this page against previous consensus, so I have reverted their action. The title they moved to was incorrect anyway, since prepositions should not be capitalized. Please follow proper procedure at Requested Moves. Polyamorph (talk) 08:49, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 October 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved (closed by non-admin page mover) Danski454 (talk) 12:56, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Soccer in South Africa → Association football in South Africa – Although the word “soccer” is more commonly used to refer to the sport (in South Africa), it is not the generally-used name for the sport, and neither is “football”. This is why the name of the sport used in the title of the article, should be changed from “soccer” to “Association football” (the official name of the sport). Association football in New Zealand uses a similar title to the one I am requesting, even though the more popular name for the sport in the country is “soccer”, just like in South Africa. The title will be changed — inevitably — so the sooner it’s done, the better. LordNkosi (talk) 09:43, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I can't see what has changed since the above. The nominator admits that "soccer" is more commonly used, hence the article is in correct place as per WP:COMMONNAME. Spike 'em (talk) 09:59, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I'm also neutral on the page title, but oppose the particular suggestion. Most articles on football in a country have titles "Football in Country" (e.g. England, Germany, Argentina). The choice should be between "Football in South Africa" or "Soccer in South Africa". Normally I would say use the most common term used in the country (which I think is soccer), but the title should match the prose of the article, which currently uses football. Jts1882 | talk 10:01, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, article should be internally consistent with naming. Spike 'em (talk) 10:03, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. Giant Snowman 10:23, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose unconvinced by arguments. The NZ example is not precedent, we have Soccer in the United States after all. Giant Snowman 10:25, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. the word “soccer” is more commonly used to refer to the sport (in South Africa). Well, then. Egsan Bacon (talk) 00:51, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. If anything, the nomination makes a case for moving the New Zealand article. Calidum 02:09, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. I just don’t see why the South African article should have a different title when both cases are almost exactly the same. LordNkosi (talk) 11:34, 23 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

RfC: Should "soccer" or "football" be used in articles related to South Africa?

The consensus is to use "soccer" instead of "football" in articles related to South Africa. RfC participants' primary argument for using "soccer" is that the term is more widely used in South Africa compared to "football".
Cunard (talk) 08:37, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should "soccer" or "football" be used in articles related to the sport in South African? Or should the unambiguous term "association football" be used? Ideally, Wikipedia should use consistent wording in South African association football articles per MOS:TIES. Currently, the wording used is inconsistent across Wikipedia articles, including titles. For example, the national team article is located at South Africa national football team, but the article on the sport in the country is located at Soccer in South Africa. This inconsistency is also reflected in category/template naming. I have included a list below of all the pages related to South Africa which use "soccer" and "football" in the title. S.A. Julio (talk) 01:10, 5 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following (unreferenced) section was previously included on the article names for association football:

In South Africa, "soccer" is the more common name, used by all cultural groups when speaking English. The domestic first division is the Premier Soccer League and both in conversation and the media (see e.g. The Sowetan or Independent Online), the term "soccer" is used almost exclusively. The largest stadium used at the 2010 FIFA World Cup, held in South Africa, was known as Soccer City. Despite this, the country's national association is called the South African Football Association and "football" might occasionally be used in official contexts. In Afrikaans, one of the other major languages in South Africa, the word "sokker" is used far more often than "voetbal".

Some additional links: [5] [6] [7]

This has been discussed on a number of occasions, also below are a few links to past discussions. S.A. Julio (talk) 01:10, 5 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Containing "soccer": 112 pages – 14 articles (12 of which are biographies), 97 categories, 1 template

Template:South African soccer seasons

Containing "football": 73 pages – 58 articles (41 of which are biographies), 11 categories, 4 templates

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. S.A. Julio (talk) 01:10, 5 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have no intention of telling those with greater knowledge of the situation in South Africa what to do about this issue, but as someone from another country with multiple football codes, you might want to have a look at how this is handled for Australia - Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Football in Australia). HiLo48 (talk) 07:36, 5 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If we're going to have back and forth over this, why not do what we've done with Eire and have Association football in South Africa etc.? Giant Snowman 20:05, 5 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Does seem link a decent solution, categories and templates could use "association football" (similar to Category:Association football in the Republic of Ireland and Category:Association football in Northern Ireland), as well as the main article on the sport (similar to Association football in the Republic of Ireland and Association football in Northern Ireland). Meanwhile, the national team article could remain at the title South Africa national football team (similar to Republic of Ireland national football team and Northern Ireland national football team). S.A. Julio (talk) 21:08, 5 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't seem to be called the "national soccer team" much of anywhere, so let's avoid that. I generally support S.A. Julio's proposal (generally because I'm not well versed on the topic and may but am unlikely to have more specific opinions later.) SportingFlyer T·C 12:21, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not called "national soccer team" much of anywhere? Yet we have Canada men's national soccer team, United States men's national soccer team, and Australia men's national soccer team. It's the primary term used in the 3 largest primarily English-speaking countries outside of the UK. Should be based on common usage with no prejudice against 'soccer'. Nfitz (talk) 02:35, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You've completely missed the point which I was trying to make, which has nothing to do with whether we should use soccer in the Australia article - I was limiting my discussion only to South Africa in which I've done searches like "national soccer team" "South Africa". Articles like [8] this use the term interchangeably (football 27 soccer 21 by my count), this article also uses the terms interchangeably (uses soccer in the league and football in the rest of the article), and unless I've absolutely completely overlooked something, South Africa doesn't have its own brand of football that needs to be disambiguated unlike gridiron or Aussie rules. I would say local newspapers refer to it consistently as "soccer." Considering it's SAFA and not SASA (and SAFA consistently use "football"), I don't think there's enough evidence to change it. SportingFlyer T·C 13:50, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reading it again User:SportingFlyer, you are correct, I did completely miss your point. Seldom has that statement been so literally correct at Wikipedia! When you said anywhere, I thought globally, and you meant nationally - which makes more sense from the context! And the way we treat it should be national not global - so Football it should be - unless other sources exist. Nfitz (talk) 19:51, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Giving my 5 cents on the matter. I want to confirm that generally speaking the term "soccer" far more more commonly used in South Africa than "football".--Discott (talk) 17:47, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Soccer. If it is a tossup between football and soccer, and even more so if soccer rules supreme in SA per Discott, we should use soccer as soccer is always unambiguously association football wheres football can mean different things in different places.--Chuka Chief (talk) 16:14, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Soccer is far more widely used. A Google search for references on South African websites finds ~17 700 000 results for soccer, and ~7 420 000 results for football. Many of the football references are local articles about football in other countries, or refer to American Football, rugby football, etc. and many also include the term soccer. I'm not in favour of "Association Football", as the term is almost never used in South Africa, and "soccer" is common and unambiguous. Greenman (talk) 18:47, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Soccer should be used, as the term is more commonly used. Idealigic (talk) 23:04, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Soccer vs. Football? Read this first

Wikipedia has a simple guideline for this very question. When a topic is strongly tied to a nation, use the formal language of that country.

Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Strong_national_ties_to_a_topic

This article has had four requests for moves, and one request for change. Many of the people chiming in on these five debates have apparently been unaware of this policy and unfamiliar with South African English. Paulgush (talk) 01:47, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]