Talk:Snowdonia Marathon

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On 28 October 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Marathon Eryri. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Official name change notification

In the news today; the previously bilingual title has now changed to Welsh only.[1][2]

It might be too early to consider a RM, but a user might consider doing this at a later date if Wikipedia:COMMONNAME criteria is met. Titus Gold (talk) 17:09, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Noted, best to check in October when the next one commences, more sources should be avaliable then that discuss the marathon itself rather than this name change, as an indicator of WP:NAMECHANGES. Dank Jae 22:10, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like a sensible plan Titus Gold (talk) 15:20, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 28 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. The whole discussion boils down to WP:TOOSOON. Perhaps, a new request in the next few months or years would yield a different consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans (talk) 12:00, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Snowdonia Marathon → Marathon Eryri – The latest Snowdonia Marathon has been rebranded as Marathon Eryri, per: [3], although documentation continues to speak of Marathon Eyri, the Snowdonia Marathon. Although older sources speak of it under the old name, the time has probably come to have a specific move discussion for this page. As a specific event, this is independent of the Snowdonia article, and arguments there. The question is whether this page should now be known as Marathon Eryri, or whether Snowdonia Marathon remains the common name. As nom. I hereby explicitly state I am undecided on the matter, and will !vote later in the RM. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:36, 28 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Jenks24 (talk) 11:30, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article on eg "Cologne Marathon", not "Köln-Marathon", which is the name in the local language, since this is the English Wikipedia. Based on what you have said, the organisation continues to promote the name Snowdonia Marathon as the English name for this event, and I suspect that non-Welsh-speaking participants at the event will continue to use that name, so that it is the common name among English speakers.

To give another example, we have articles on "Ivory Coast" and "Turkey", even though the governments of those two countries want English speakers to use another name in each case.

Hope this is helpful. (Gobeithio bydd honno yn ddefynyddiol.) Ehrenkater (talk) 14:15, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Still isn’t this kinda just WP:Official names using the organisation itself as a justification. I’ve had the marathon under a list of names to review so you got ahead of me. Best to check if sources also use the new term, I have seen some use “Snowdonia Marathon/Marathon Eryri”.

Ofc as this is a formal body we could argue to be less stringent but while separate from Snowdonia is it as controversial. Dank Jae 10:47, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Actually "Marathon Eryri/Snowdonia Marathon", in this Wrexham.com source as an example, so meaning the old name is still somewhat used. And following opposition at Welsh Language Society (but yes not WP:OTHERCONTENT, but as a discussion) best to wait until a source uses "Marathon Eryri" on its own without the old name at all. Dank Jae 10:57, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This Chester Standard source does use the new name alone, but a more indepth review of more sources would be needed. As there is no evidence yet, not sure if I can support it yet. Dank Jae 11:02, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I am leaning towards oppose then. However I don't think it is as controversial as Snowdonia. This is a specific event and they can call it what they like. I note, however, that the Millennium Stadium is still listed under that name and not the rebranded Principality Stadium. Common name still applies, and until people actually use Marathon Eryri, on its own, in English reporting, I agree that it is too soon for the change. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I mean it relates to the Snowdonia/Eryri debate overall so probably still controversial in general, but not on Wikipedia regarding sources, but as a smaller event than an entire area, much easier to focus on to analyse use. I've had Millennium Stadium raised as one in need of review, so maybe I could see value of one there after looking at sources, so may be that could change soon. I believe a RM here would be needed eventually, like if I can find a few more sources like the Chester Standard, then that could be enough here and maybe your RM has merit then. Dank Jae 11:16, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Sirfurboy and Ehrenkater:; here's a quick review I found, looking for any sources from July to today, very few sources actually reporting on the marathon so quite hard to determine if the new name has caught on. For Eryri, I did include some sources that may not be independent or really reliable (italicised), but with so few, decided to retain them.

Review period July 2023 – October 2023 [4] [5] [6]

Snowdonia Marathon: Advnture.com
Both: Wrexham.com
Marathon Eryri or Eryri Marathon: Welsh Athletics Run Britain Wales Online North Wales Road Runners Club Chester Standard Cardiff Half Marathon Penarth and Dinas Runners

Google Trends as an indicator, there was no clear commonname search over the last 90 days on Google Trends. Snowdonia Marathon had the most, but only a few searches more than Marathon Eryri, considering the very low search volumes. Google News (July to October 2023) - Marathon Eryri 2-4 news articles, Snowdonia Marathon full of index pages so hard to decipher, but only saw 2 or 3 actual news articles (but they referred to the past or a quote), Snowdonia Marathon Eryri none.

So like there is a small lead for the new name, but quite a weak one, so not sure whether to proceed with a move or just wait longer. Not confident nonetheless, but you may regard it as enough. Dank Jae 16:35, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add that on the event's English language website, it says in big letters at the bottom of each page, "All profits at the Snowdonia Marathon are donated to local community projects". So there does not appear to be complete agreement within the organisation on what to call it. Ehrenkater (talk) 15:20, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ehrenkater, true although that could be simply because the entire website hasn't been updated. The formal name is "Snowdonia Marathon Eryri", however official names aren't to be used just because its official. I am not arguing we have to follow what they do or do not call themselves, but some sources have quickly accepted it. Dank Jae 15:50, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:25, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
~~Weak oppose~~ (amend due to comments below), clarify position based on my evidence above. No clear evidence of WP:NAMECHANGES and a change in WP:COMMONNAME due to limited amount of sources, as well as some new sources still using the existing article title. When excluding running-related sources (those italicised) that may not be independent or reliable, which I provided, there are only two news publications using the new name, one using both, and one using the current article name. No evidence can be made yet on whether the common name has changed. However, things could change in the coming months or by next year's event to consider another RM, but not as of now. Dank Jae 15:26, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Per WP:COMMONNAME and discussion above. As nom., however, I request we don't early-close this but let it run for the full week. I opened it when an IP attempted to change the name, and it would be useful to have a finished discussion to point to as and when such attempts are made. My oppose is based on it being WP:TOOSOON, and this could be looked at again when there is good evidence common name has changed. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 16:02, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support (particularly based on new evidence) - There have been additional articles published in the past 3 days that use "Marathon Eryri". Based on the vast majority of articles and athletics websites now using the new name, does this now show sufficient evidence for the change as per Wikipedia:COMMONNAME?
Here are the articles published in the past 3 days that all use "Marathon Eryri":
Might be worth waiting until the end of the week because the latest race took place on 28 October 2023. Titus Gold (talk) 21:32, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Another since yesterday using "Marathon Eryri":
https://www.sussexexpress.co.uk/sport/other-sport/hailsham-eastbourne-and-hastings-athletes-tackle-beachy-head-wormwood-scrubs-and-plenty-more-4396001 Titus Gold (talk) 21:11, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And another today using "Marathon Eryri":

https://www.cambrian-news.co.uk/sport/aberystwyth-athletes-tackle-marathon-eryri-one-of-the-uks-toughest-races-648127 Titus Gold (talk) 15:03, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ehrenkater, @Necrothesp, @Sirfurboy; @Titus Gold does provide more evidence of a potential WP:NAMECHANGES. Dank Jae 01:15, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The most interesting of these is the Ilkley Gazette which has Marathon Eryri in Snowdonia National Park. That, to me, makes the point that the event's common name is changing and has perhaps changed, despite the fact that the national park's common name has not changed. The Sussex one is also good for not being not a Welsh newspaper as are the running sites, but actually has "Eryri Marathon". But this is still the usual thing of cherry picking a few sources and is not an objective basis for a decision on a common name. There are countless counter claims where "Snowdonia Marathon" is used (e.g., [7]) or both titles are used (e.g. [8]) I don't think we can use ngrams here, and google fu is not the most objective, but in possible favour of a change, I note that this search, for Snowdonia Marathon, this year [9] gives 15,400 results but Marathon Eryri [10] gives 29,300. This is the most objective evidence we have for a change. Is it conclusive yet? I am not sure. Both searches should include the overlap, and the google indicative overlap is about 3,500.[11]. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:34, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Searches for this year wouldn't properly take into account the name change because it only happened in mid-June. A better search period would be 28 Oct 2023-present because that's the date of the first race with the new title or mid-June to present for post-name change period. I assume that published sources hold more weight than searches also?

A website comparison would be difficult because you'd have to trawl through 10s if not 100s of sites to select official ones for comparison. Of those websites linked above "Marathon Eryri" is used far more frequently. It's worth noting that many if not most sites using "Snowdonia" seem to be published for the 2022 race or earlier and have not since been updated. This is one argument for Wikipedia:Too soon

From looking at news articles published in the last week (from the 30th), 7 linked above used "Marathon Eryri" whilst I only found one using the phrase "Snowdonia Marathon (known as Eryri)" published by Bolton news.
News in last week: 7:0 (Bolton news using both) in favour of "Marathon Eryri" Wikipedia:Common name

News in last month 9:1 (Bolton news using both) in favour of "Marathon Eryri" Wikipedia:Common name

Titus Gold (talk) 10:44, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.