Talk:Smile (Katy Perry album)

Singles from the album

NEVER REALLY OVER AND HARLEYS IN HAWAII MAY BE ON THE ALBUM BUT THEY ARE NOT SINGLES FROM THE ALBUM. DAISIES IS THE LEAD SINGLE AS CONFIRMED THROUGH PERRY'S TWITTER — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.17.138.77 (talk) 22:45, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. If you have an edit request, please use {{edit request}}. Also note that we try to avoid Twitter per WP:SOCIALMEDIA and its speculative at this stage as to what is or isn't included on the album and therefore classed a single. Perry said "Daises" was the first single and none of the prior singles would be included. She has since said Never Really Over will also be on the album. If its on the tracklisting it will be classified as a single because it was released independently from the album and was released in promotion of the album. If it ends up as a bonus track we'll see what reliable sources say at the time. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 23:15, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

"Perry released 'Never Really Over' and 'Harleys in Hawaii' before 'Daisies', ergo, they are singles off Smile". That's original research at its best. The worst is that I predicted this at Talk:Brightest Blue, where the preceding stand-alone singles are now excluded. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 01:33, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Tbhotch, they were excluded but I added them back as there's no consensus at the track page of Brightest Blue. Similarly in the case of Smile, the duck test applies applies. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 14:43, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

That's funny because: "The duck test does not apply to article content, and does not trump, or even stand aside, policies such as no original research, verifiability, and neutral point of view." It still original research and the WP:BURDEN relies on you, not on the alleged duck test. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 02:34, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Tbhotch I totally misread what you said! It's an interesting conundrum because the template mentions that singles should be songs that are released during the marketing campaign for the album however during the streaming era, by including songs previously released on the album it contributes towards the number of units moved - single track streams count towards overall album streams. If the purpose of promotion is to increase awareness of the album and number of units streamed then including NRO and HiH ultimately increases the number of album-equivalent units that Smile logs and thus the commercial success of the album. If promotion in the simplest sense is to increase commercial success then very inclusion of previously released singles also does the same thing IMO. Its how we capture that in wiki policies and how people "choose" to interpret the guidelines versus what the artists/labels say. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 16:29, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

"Fan Edition" tracks

Um...isn't this Fan Edition of album, well, fan-made? Should it be here? infsai (dyskusja) 16:43, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

@Infsai: it's not fan-made lol. I think the Deluxe edition of Smile is called as “Smile: Fan edition”. BawinV (talk) 18:04, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

yep. It's not "fanmade". It is listed on Katy's official website and Capitol's Czech outlet website. Capitol has also mentioned the version in their redirect to Katy's website. So its official. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4061:2E1E:4EF6:0:0:E4CA:E20E (talk) 13:35, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Lead Single

If the souce says "Daisies" is the first single shouldn't it be first in the infobox? Or is "Never Really Over" supposed to be first in the infobox despite the source (Billboard) in this article claiming "Daisies" as the lead single. Froyo Fox126 (talk) 21:45, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Look here. ;) And "Never Really Over" is first in infobox, 'cause it was first-released. ;) infsai (dyskusja) 23:47, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Should the vinyl album cover be added?

Smile is set to have multiple album covers: the standard album cover (already featured in the article), 5 limited edition covers (a note about them is already added) and the vinyl cover (https://shop.katyperry.com/products/smile-d2c-exclusive-picture-disc-vinyl?variant=32221751246920). This one is quite different from the standard edition cover, so I was wondering if it should be added to the infobox. EnjoyingMyProblems (talk) 15:02, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

EnjoyingMyProblems Nope. That is a picture of the disc rather than the actual sleeve for the vinyl. I'm sure the CD album will have an image on the disc too. Per WP:NFCC, album covers are non-free images. Under US law, you're only allowed to use copyright images in a limited context to provide identification. There has to be very very very specific and good reasons for using multiple covers - usually specific versions of an album or re-releases. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 10:55, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Lil-unique1 I understand that when you click on the link I provided, the first photo shown is of the vinyl disc itself, however, you may notice that there are 3 images provided and the 2nd one is of the vinyl / picture disc version's cover. It can also be seen in this Idolator Tweet. Having looked over WP:NFCC, I'm not sure which category this cover would not fit. Also, I know that other Wikipedia pages, such as those for Lana Del Rey's Ultraviolence, Honeymoon and Norman Fucking Rockwell! albums, include the alternate covers for Urban Outfitters-exclusive versions of the records, despite those versions not including any new / exclusive content (apart from the cover, of course). Is the situation with Smile's vinyl edition any different? EnjoyingMyProblems (talk) 13:18, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Never Really Over as lead single

In May 2019, Perry confirmed NRO was the lead single of a new untitled album. She later said that she would not release the album unless there was a demand for it, and later released a string of stand-alones such as Small Talk. Later, she announced Daisies as the lead single of her album Smile, but added NRO to the track list. Therefore, I believe NRO is the first single from the album, regardless of how unclear the promotional rollout to the era is. Other thoughts are needed to support this before I want to make a change. Feel free to declare your support or disagreement. --Thelonggoneblues (talk) 14:53, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Do you have a source? © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 15:01, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Daises is the lead single, confirmed by Perry herself. There can’t be two leads, and Perry said it was Daises, so it’s Daises. Case closed. Doggy54321 (talk) 15:09, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Its possible to have a number of lead singles. A lead single isn't always the first single. It's the lead in the album promotion. Never Really Over is the true first single. This makes Harleys In Hawaii also a single (second) from Smile. See: Lead_single#More_than_one_lead_single_of_an_album BiebersBoyMendes (talk) 08:13, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

@BiebersBoyMendes: thanks for the info! Unfortunately, that isn’t the case with Smile. Never Really Over, Small Talk, Harleys in Hawaii and Never Worn White were released as standalone singles before an album was even announced. They were later added to the track list. Daises was released as the lead single because it had ties to the album as it was released. You’re right when you say that the lead isn’t always the first, it’s the first in album promotion. The former four songs weren’t released with album promotion. Daises was. Then, you contradict yourself. NRO is the first released from the album, being released more than a year ago. It didn’t have album promotion along with it. Daises did. So Daises is the lead single because it was the first single released that had album promotion along with it. Perry has said it is the lead single as well, so to put NRO as the lead would then contradict what the most primary of primary sources (when it comes to this album at least) said. Thanks so much! Doggy54321 (talk) 13:09, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for replying so courteously :) Wouldn't adding them to the album, considering they were all part of the Smile sessions and subsequent promotion make them singles from said album? As they are her solo singles that are only available on her album. I wouldn't add Small Talk and Never Worn White as official singles as they are bonus tracks. I think it more factually accurate to place Never Really Over and Harleys In Hawaii in the singles info box and in the Singles part of the article. Then maybe mention Small Talk and Never Worn White in a subsection called, 'Other songs'. BiebersBoyMendes (talk) 23:25, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Not in this case. When initially released, there were no known album plans, and Katy specifically said she was just focused on individual tracks for 2019. Furthermore, "Daisies" was declared the album's lead single when first announced. "Never Really Over" and "Harleys in Hawaii" were singles that happened to be included on the tracklist before the album cycle for this began with "Daises" on May 15, 2020. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 23:39, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

I definitely disagree. It's a marketing strategy and they were testing the waters. There have been many albums that have been released with a single or two before the album comes to fruition. :) Daisies being the lead single doesn't negate the other two, therefore that logic is void. Both songs have also been used in promotion for the release of the album, which they're included on, because they're singles from it, which is what a single is, releases used to promote an album. :) BiebersBoyMendes (talk) 01:01, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Standalone singles (aka non-album singles) are very much a thing. That's what those were before being added to the Smile tracklist. It's admittedly a different case from "Rise", "Cozy Little Christmas", "365" or "Con Calma", but still, being released as a single doesn't always mean it's intended to promote a specific album. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:07, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

It's just that in this case all the songs on the Smile album that were released as singles are singles from the Smile album. I'll let it go because I know if I edited it to reflect it it would just be reverted instantly so it doesn't matter anyway. Never mind :)BiebersBoyMendes (talk) 11:24, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

BawinV, per Template:Infobox_song#album: If the song was originally released as a single well in advance of the album, |album= should not be used, since it is not from the album, but later added to one.. Stop reverting the edits and respect the consensus here! Bluesatellite (talk) 05:05, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Didn't know there was a consensus. Cool. Thanks. BawinV (talk) 05:41, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

I will ping Bluesatellite so they can see my perspective. This section of the talk page only came to the consensus that "Never Really Over" is not the lead off of Smile, "Harleys In Hawaii" is also not a single off the album, etc. I do not see a consensus on whether or not the |album= should be filled on the four solo singles Perry released in 2019 and 2020 that are on Smile. While Template:Infobox_song#album does state that |album= should not be used if the song was released "well in advance of the album", even Perry herself has stated in multiple interviews and in the voice memo "Message from Katy" on the Target edition and Japanese deluxe edition of the album that through her writing process she had no intention of making a record. Songs like "Cry About It Later" were written and recorded at the same time as "Never Really Over" but was not chosen to be released at the time. It wasn't until all or most of the songs were finished that she decided to compile them onto one singular project. I would also like to argue that "Without Me" was released as the lead single off of Manic well over a year prior to the album's release. While "Never Really Over" was not released as the lead, they're both inclusions off of their respective albums, which is why songs that aren't singles that have their own article still include their album in the |album= section. Playking616 (talk) 01:50, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

I only implemented what was already decided. If you have problem with |album=, then challenge it on the talk page of the {{infobox song}} and make the consensus there. We should not rely on WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. Yes the consensus here is that "Never Really Over" and all those songs are not singles from Smile, that's why it should be consistently implemented on all the infoboxes and discography page. Bluesatellite (talk) 02:02, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Yet you informed me to take the discussion here and wanted to use that page as a reasoning and I explained to you why I believe your various reasonings are flawed. Playking616 (talk) 02:56, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

I take you here to discuss here instead of continuously reverting based on your own assumption. I stick to the rules (what the templates say). To be honest, I don't really care whether "Never Really Over" and all those songs are singles from the album Smile, or not. I just want consistency with the infobox album, infobox song, and discography page. You guys made the consensus, whatever the result please implement it all over this Wikipedia. Bluesatellite (talk) 03:32, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

A section for this has already been created in Template talk:Infobox Song two months ago in which another fellow Smile editor had linked the talk page of Ellie Goulding's Brightest Blue in which an in depth discussion of the same situation with her album also took place. Smile was introduced as a talking point there as well, and the consensus was that the album should be included in the infoboxes of the songs in question. Playking616 (talk) 10:58, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, well I don't even see consensus on that RfC to be honest. They're not talking about |album= of the Template:Infobox song at all. Bluesatellite (talk) 20:51, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

"What Makes a Woman"

Just to be clear, "What Makes a Woman" is not a single, it is a promotional single. The Music Network is not a WP:RS, and on my talk page (scroll to bottom), there is a conversation about how it’s not reliable. Please do not change it to become a single unless you can provide a reliable source stating it’s a single. Thanks so much! Doggy54321 (talk) 18:16, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

"Not the End of the World" sample

In "Not the End of the World", a sample of Steam's "Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye" can be heard during the chorus and end of the track.

I can't see any credits for this in the album's meta data. It might be because "Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye" is more than 35 years old, undercopright law it isn't required to credit samples anymore. If anyone has the album booklet, they can clarify this. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 09:28, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

The booklet does in fact state at the very bottom of the song's credits "Contains elements of 'Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye' (G. DeCarlo/P. Leka/D. Fashuer), Unichappell Music, Inc. (BMI). All rights reserved." Playking616 (talk) 02:35, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Smile feat. Diddy

Given that the Diddy version of "Smile" only features on some vinyl versions of the album (not on the DTC ones), can we agree that it can suffice as a note rather than a separate track listing section? It feels a bit silly as its currently presented. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 21:35, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes; we don't need to single out that specific track when only a limited number of copies contain the Diddy mix and it isn't a bonus edition track widely distributed unlike what Target or Japan offer. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 21:39, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

I did try and note this however, there was a number of revisions by the same user so I'm going down the proper route to get a consensus for this. Pinging King G.A and Playking616 out of politeness as both were involved in reverting either side of the debate. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 21:46, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

I would like to note that the DTC exclusive vinyl cover version does in fact have the version of Smile featuring Diddy. I have not seen any version of the vinyl that does not include this feature personally. Whether or not that changes any other opinions, I still don’t believe it needs to be listed separately as it currently stands either. Playking616 (talk) 22:38, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Also considering that the version of Smile featuring Diddy was written by two additional writers, how would that be taken into account when noting the version difference? Playking616 (talk) 02:28, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Playking616 It's not true what you say, the song is included in a record release of the album see also the link here in the list of tracks on the album [1].

"Resilient (Tiesto Remix) (Song)" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Resilient (Tiesto Remix) (Song). The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 November 18#Resilient (Tiesto Remix) (Song) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 02:53, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 December 2020

49.183.15.16 (talk) 00:12, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

The albums fourth singles is the resilient remix

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 01:10, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Not the end of the world

Not the end of the world was released as a single in December but why is there no article on that single? And why isn't anything about that single mentioned in the article of it's album? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.34.0.221 (talk) 09:47, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Before an editor can add information to an article, they must make sure it is verified and sourced by a reliable source. The single hasn’t received a lot of coverage from the media, so that’s probably why you don’t see that much information about it in the article. Now, in terms of an article solely on that single, the song would need to be notable enough to have its own article. Since it would be an article based off of a song, it would need to meet the criteria of the general notability guideline, as well as the notability guideline for songs and singles; currently it meets neither. Hope this helps! D🐶ggy54321 ^{(let's chat!)} 13:11, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Cry About It Later

"Cry About It Later" was sent to Australian radio in August 2020 (so was What Makes a Woman the week prior); should be listed as a promotional single. http://web.archive.org/web/20200904002725/https://themusicnetwork.com/charts/singles-to-radio/ 2601:180:8200:63D0:45E0:B0CD:2D2C:CB7C (talk) 22:53, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

What Makes a Woman was a promotional single - we know that cause it was released to iTunes the week before the album. As for the Music network, we've deemed that it needs more than just that reference to be classified as a single. The Music Network staff confirm that they compile the weekly listings from songs at radio, not songs sent to radio. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 09:34, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Singles

Not The End Of The World and Cry About It Later are Promotional singles because they weren't released to radio. 2A01:261:500:6300:E5A8:2463:E202:32D4 (talk) 17:30, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Did you check their respective pages? (CC) Tbhotch^™ 02:57, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 June 2023

Please add Never Really Over and Harleys in Hawaii to the list of singles.

Even though they were released the previous year, they were still singles for the album and contribute to its performance. Including such singles is the norm for Wikipedia, such as on the page for SZA's SOS, on which Good Days and I Hate U are listed as singles. Hearlparbor (talk) 22:10, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done they were released as standalone songs, not attached to anything else at the time of their respective debuts, and later just happened to be included on the tracklist for this album. That's not the same thing as being released as part of an album rollout or getting a single distribution after the parent album is available. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 00:05, 29 June 2023 (UTC)