Talk:Sleet

Untitled

"In some countries, such as Canada and the UK, sleet is not a recognized meteorological term" I just ended up on this page because my app from the British Met Office warned me of "sleet" tomorrow! Looks like it's a 'code 18' http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/datapoint/support/code-definitions — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.217.241 (talk) 22:27, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Previous discussions without headers

I have separated the American and English definitions. I have placed the American version first because:

1-More people speak American English than British English.

2-The American version is a more 'independent' form of precipitation versus the British type (which is a mix of two types).

3-The American National Weather Service issues official warnings and advisories using the American definition (Heavy Sleet Warning and Sleet Advisory); I do not believe the UK Met Office does likewise for the British definition.

Unsigned comments above at 20:13, 27 December 2005 by User:Famartin

1. - this sort of attitude is not valid on wikipedia. See the Manual of Style. The page history shows that the page was started [1] with the international definition, by a British user, Ddroar.
2. - is irrelevant.
3. - generally sleet is not dangerous so warnings are un-necessary - MPF 10:44, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I reverted it back to my earlier version, which is more correct.

1. - An international definition cannot be valid if it is not used internationally. The British definition of sleet is NOT used in America.
2. - How is the fact that more people speak American English than British English irrevelent?
3. - According to the National Weather Service, it IS necessary to warn for. See Severe Weather Terminology - Famartin 15:45, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

1. The British definition of sleet is used in most English-speaking countries (from a quick google check, including Australia, India, New Zealand, South Africa, and (mixed with the US definition) Canada). That makes it international. International doesn't have to mean every nation, just several (after all countries that don't use English don't use the word 'sleet' at all). The US definition isn't (as far as I can tell) used outside of the US and (in part) Canada. The British definition also has historical primacy, dating back to 1300 (OED); the US definition is a recent corruption of the word.
2. Because the US does not own the world, and has no right to require the world to follow US usage. Wikipedia accepts all forms of English, and pages should follow the use most appropriate to the subject (e.g. UK English for the London page, US English for the New York page) or, where a page is not location-relevant (as here), then the form of English used by the first person to start the article. And anyway, if one is to decide by vote of population, by far the most widely used form of English is Commonwealth English (which is very similar to British English).
3. Only for the US definition of sleet. Not for the international. You never get 12mm accumulations of 'international' sleet, because it soaks away or runs off down the drains. And the US National Weather Service has no juristiction outside of the USA. - MPF 16:34, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The current compromise page is acceptable.Famartin 16:54, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

OK by me too now, thanks - MPF 16:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The "American definition" isn't used by any Americans I've ever met. I'm from Michigan, and sleet = British "sleet." Since we in Michigan get more of the stuff than about anywhere else in the country (who's both this cold AND gets as much lake-effect precipitation? that's right, nobody), I think you can count this as descriptively authoritative.

Check with your local National Weather Service office: http://www.srh.noaa.gov/shv/Sleet.htm "Sleet - Definition: Generally transparent, globular, solid grains of ice which have formed from the freezing of raindrops or the refreezing of largely melted snowflakes when falling through a below-freezing layer of air near the earth's surface. (Glossary of Meteorology)"Famartin 05:21, 31 January 2006

I'm from NY and CA, and the so-called British definition is what I've always used and heard used, too, no matter what noaa.gov says. The other stuff is hail--and that's what the weather radio stations have been reporting as this stuff (photo) is falling today in conjunction with thunderstorms. (In photo, it started raining after the hail and also hailstones have started to melt.) Elf | Talk 00:13, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that IS hail. SLEET falls with winter storms, not thunderstorms. As a professional meteorologist, I don't know how many times I've wanted to slap people for getting sleet and hail confused (the people on this disco page among them ;-) ). You virtually never get sleet out in California, but hail occurs fairly often. On the other hand, sleet is much more common in New York. Check out this graphic [[2]] for SLEET, and this page [[3]] for HAIL formation. Also, here's another good page on the differences [[4]]. Famartin 15:49, 4 March 2006

I must ask then, to the professional meteorologist (as apposed to amateur meteorologist or perhaps retired meteorologist) what the US word for "British sleet" would be. So far, I believe there is a general concensus here that, in the US, we the term "sleet" in the British sense. Now, whether that's the true definition or not, I'd say it's certainly worth mentioning.SlyMaelstrom 20:19, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The British term for sleet, which simply refers to a mix of a mix of raindrops and snowflakes, is referred to simply referred to as that: a mix of rain and snow. As rain and snow are specific, separate types of precipitation, there is no reason for a specific name for a mixture of them; it is simply a mixture. Meanwhile, the American usage of sleet, referring to ice pellets, is a distinct type of precipitation.

Finally, I would argue that the musings of a few wikipedians does not constitute a 'general consensus'. As shown on the main page, the US National Weather Service considers sleet to be the preferred term for ice pellets (see the link to the glossary). Their definition should be the end of this discussion, since they are the highest authority on matters of weather within the United States.Famartin 04:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Musings of a few? Come now, we're talking about people stating explicitly that they have never heard anyone use the Nation Weather Service's definition of sleet. After I read this, I asked about 40 people (not all native to where I live) how they would describe sleet and they all described it the way I did. A mixture of rain and snow. Now, I'm not a meteorologist, but I am a computer scientist and I know enough about statistics to state that if the majority of people used the Nation Weather Service's definition, then I probably would have got a different answer out of someone. Whether or not the real definition is what the Nation Weather Service says, I think it's worth mentioning what (most likely) most US citizens would consider sleet. 199.67.140.42 21:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

What you are asking violates the scientific integrity of Wikipedia. Would a layman's view of computer science be appropriate for Wikipedia articles on the subject? Of course not, and this is not the case here. We're talking about a scientific subject, which should be handled by the scientists who deal with it. There are plenty of computer scientists who have spent long hours on the computer science subjects handled by Wikipedia. In contrast, the fact is that many of the meteorology topics on Wikipedia are NOT in good shape, because most meteorologists could care less about this place. Be glad that this one cares A LITTLE. Famartin 04:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Scientific integrity has nothing to do with it. The usage of words -- even where they differ between their casual and scientific meanings -- have to be respected. Take "dinosaur". To a zoologist or palaeontologist (like myself) dinosaurs include birds. But if I was to talk with a layperson and mention that I was out in the park feeding the dinosaurs, that person would think I am quite mad. Quite clearly "sleet" is used colloquially in a different way by many Americans to its use in meteorology. Denying that is silly; Wikipedia exists to educate and inform, but not to re-shape language use. Thus, the "Use in the US" section should respect this, and say that while "sleet" means something very specific in meteorology (and presumably related fields like aviation) in common usage the word is used in much the same way as in the UK.

In itself, I think that is quite interesting. I'm not surprised when Americanisms slip into widespread British usage, but seeing words go in the other direction is much less common and rather a nice reminder of how the two biggest versions of English interact with one another. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 11:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand the idea that "you talked to a few friends" is not citable evidence, but the pedants could easily search for other online available evidence (look for articles and videos of local US news weather forecasts throughout different US regions, and you'll see what I mean) to find the same conclusion -- that at the very least, Americans use both definitions of sleet, and, at the very most, just possibly, the "British" definition is universal among Americans and only one US government agency prefers the "American" definition. I am tempted to appeal to humorous stereotypes about us Americans and our anti-authoritarian streak, but I'll just leave it at that -- a single government agency's web page has little bearing on popular usage of a term.

Frankly, I came to this page because I was confused about a real weather bulletin issued here in NYC, and this page confused me a lot more, when I saw mixed snow/rain falling out my window, vaguely recalled that that's what sleet meant (but was hazy since it's been a while since last winter), yet had Wikipedia telling me that it's ice pellets I'm supposed to watch for (which there's none of). Leave weasel words if you like, but at least a hint that some (IMHO most or all, but you can say some if you like) Americans call rain with snow sleet, so future readers are not so confused and mislead as I was. It's lucky I'm familiar with this particular Wikipedia phenomenon, or it would not have occurred to me to check the Talk page to find the inevitable UK/US argument. Enough, who cares. Wikipedia is here to aggregate _useful_ information. What order definitions are presented in is irrelevant. --User:DG (74.73.151.154 (talk) 17:39, 12 February 2017 (UTC))

Kiddo, you said you are in NYC - here's your weather bulletin from the National Weather Service: "...WINTER WEATHER ADVISORY NOW IN EFFECT UNTIL 4 PM EST THIS AFTERNOON... * Locations...New York City and Long Island. * Hazard Types...Snow, sleet and ice." Notice it says, SNOW, SLEET, and ICE. By ice, they mean freezing rain. So, what you are seeing is in the forecast. Sleet is ice pellets, snow is flakes, ice is the rain falling which is freezing on contact (since its 30 at Central Park right now). There is nothing wrong with the forecast, just your interpretation of it. Its easy for people to get confused as to what is referred to by "sleet" since it happens often with snow and rain. But that doesn't mean sleet = mixture of snow and rain. Famartin (talk) 17:56, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

It is said above that "more people speak American English than British English". While this may be true, British English is an official language for more people than American English. British English is an official language in the European Union, which has more inhabitants than the USA. British English is also the most commonly used second language in the world. DG (talk) 12:57, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Re-jigged article

I took a pass at the article because I came here looking for information and got confused by what was there. As far as I can see the difference between the UK/Comm. and US usages is that in the UK it is exclusively partially melted snow, and in the US frozen raindrops (or refrozen snowflakes). I hope that's right. The stuff explaining what hail was and how it was different to sleet added nothing and actually muddied the waters, so I removed it. I added references in the proper format (vague references at the end are much worse than embedded references to particular facts).

Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 16:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I still think, though, that the US section should at least mention that the UK definition is widely used there, at least colloquially - as mentioned several times above. The other way around doesn't matter, since the US definition is never used here in the UK. 86.136.255.33 02:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. Maplebed (talk) 14:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Undone. You must cite a source if you are to make such a change. Once you have a source, then that's fine... until then, no go. Famartin (talk) 15:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

As somebody who has also spent her entire life in the Upper Midwest, I've also never, ever heard sleet used to mean "ice pellets". After polling a couple dozen people, every one agreed that "sleet" was a mixture of rain and snow. I've even heard our weather forecasters call it such. I don't understand the need for such pedantry, especially since it's obvious that people use that colloquial meaning. --Marumari (talk) 15:11, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be instructive not to think of "sleet" as a British English term, but as a Scandinavian term. You could write it as "and colloquially in areas of high Scandinavian ancestry, such as the Upper Midwest". Citation 1, Citation 2

Out here in Oregon sleet is water mixed with ice within the same falling unit. Not mixed rain and snow, we get that too, but sleet is when the solid ice is inside a drop of water, or at least melted on the outside. If it is a completely solid ice pellet it would be called hail.76.105.216.34 (talk) 07:43, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Some other citations are United States Water Law, and perhaps best is this one, where the US Weather Bureau went and chose one of two definitions in common usage:

Sleet. Many of the terms used in meteorology are also in common colloquial use, and have acquired such a diversity of meanings that it is of the utmost importance that they should be defined with precision. Among them are the terms sleet, ice storm, glazed ice, and others of a similar nature. Of these none perhaps has been used more loosely in the United States than the first. Accordingly, the United States Weather Bureau appointed a committee to formulate suggestions for an appropriate nomenclature of sleet. After a careful examination into the etymology of the word, its early and more recent definitions, and its usage by meteorologists, the committee decided that the fundamental confusion of usage in the United States arose from the application of the term to two forms of frozen precipitation, one of which is frozen in the free air, and the other after contact with chilled terrestrial objects, and it recommended that the term sleet should be confined to the former, while the latter should be designated as "glaze." The practice of using the term ice storm to designate the icy coating instead of the general weather conditions causing it was strongly disapproved.

--Marumari (talk) 15:32, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

An interesting quotation to say the least. However, it deals with the difference between freezing rain and ice pellets, not rain and snow mixed and ice pellets, and thus is inapplicable here. Famartin (talk) 17:54, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I have lived in the UK for ten years having grown up in Oklahoma. The precipitation the British refer to as "hail", I would have called "sleet" in Oklahoma. I presume that they call those tiny ice pellets the size of raindrops that fall with wintry weather "hail" because they have never seen what we call "hail" and have no need to differentiate between a minor inconvenience and potential temporarily slippery road, from the "hail" that is sized anywhere between an acorn and a grapefruit, and has the potential to cause significant damage to property or persons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:6388:F800:E5A1:70DE:A258:4EEA (talk) 15:11, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Add me to the list

of Americans who have never used the "American" definition of sleet nor ever heard any other American use it nor ever even heard of it period before I saw the article.Heathcliff (talk) 18:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

• I've always understood sleet to be ice pellets. Thegreatdr (talk) 20:58, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
• And add me to the list of Canadians who've never encountered the "Canadian" definition. Sleet means sloppy, melting snow to me. WillNL (talk) 22:41, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Needs Restructuring

Right now, there's too much focus on what the WORD sleet means and how its used, with "usage" in the actual headers. There's a way to globalize this and talk about sleet without elevating word usage to the headers. Describe the physical properties and formation of same, and compare/contrast any differences in terminology due to regional differences. It's just too unwieldy and awkward as it is currently written. - Ageekgal (talk) 05:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

This article needs to be split

It's pretty clear there are two completely different definitions of sleet in play here, and there's no sense fighting over it. Just make one article called Sleet (melting precipitation) and Sleet (frozen precipitation). Make Sleet into a DAB page which points to both. Problem solved. Gopher backer (talk) 21:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree, although I believe the title of Sleet (frozen precipitation) should be changed to Ice pellets. Ice pellets means the same thing universally (if i'm not mistaken), meaning precipitation which has refrozen before hitting the ground after a period of melting. -RunningOnBrains 04:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I partly agree. Honestly, I see no reason for an article covering the British definition. IMHO, the following should suffice for the DAB page...

Sleet may refer to:

1 - A mixture of snow and rain.

2 - Ice pellets.

Famartin (talk) 11:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. There could be a brief sentence in the intro or elsewhere in the "ice pellets" article. Is that really all that sleet is outside of the US? Another word for slush? I'd be interested to see references which have an actual definition of this other "sleet". -RunningOnBrains 22:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Honestly I've never understood even the need for the British definition. The American definition, at least, is a distinct form of hydrometeor. The British definition is mearly the simultaneous co-existance of two other hydrometeors. The photo used in this article for the British definition would simply be called "wet snow" in the United States. I'd really like to hear some British opinions on this.Famartin (talk) 02:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Since there's been no comments on this, I've gone ahead and separated the ice pellet section back into its own article, and made the sleet article a disambiguation page.Famartin (talk) 14:36, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Ice pellets more usual

In the course of repairing incoming links to this dab, I revised the dab. In the description of ice pellets, I put "more usual in summer", meaning that in summer ice pellets occur more often than rain and snow mixed. (To my knowledge, ice pellets also occur more often in summer than in winter.) Another editor changed it to "more usual in winter", I expect meaning that ice pellets are more common than hail in winter (hail being very rare then), and less common than hail in summer. Yes, no? My interest here is in helping readers figure out when "sleet" refers to one of the choices on this dab. --Una Smith (talk) 07:16, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

That would be correct. Ice pellets are a cold-season precipitation type, not at all common in the summer. Besides hail, the only frozen form of precipitation "likely" (though much less likely than hail) to be encountered in summer is graupel.Famartin (talk) 13:18, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Common / techincal

I'm not at all sure what state the article was in when all the above discussion took place. Anyway, it looks to me as though "sleet" is what yer man in the street calls it, whereas ice pellets is probably what the met service calls it, at least in the US. So I've made that distinction. Who knows, I may be wrong, in which case I've no doubt you'll tell me William M. Connolley (talk) 10:47, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Functional rewrite

I functionally rewrote this disambiguation stub as it was written in a very strange, strident POV tone. The point should be to differentiate the difference between the official UK weather bureau definition (melted snow and rain) and the official US National Weather Service definition (granular ice pellet precepitation).

The point is not to explain your opinion on WHICH usage is the correct one. The point is to neutrally word it. Both terms are officially used by their respective weather bureaus. I don't care if your Great Aunty has ever heard of it. Anecdote is a grossly unsuitable source for information. Bravo Foxtrot (talk) 03:07, 2 February 2011 (UTC)