Talk:Skanderbeg/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Euzen (talk) 09:22, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

I am planning to review this article. I am of the opinion that does not meet the Good Article Criteria, especially the Neutral Point of View.

1. Well-written?

I am not native english speaker, therefore I cannot judge the quality of writting. There are some errors in the transcription from other languages (Greek, Slavonic etc) to english, but I will not focus much on them now. I suppose the author is willing to make corrections after suggestions from native speakers of Greek or other languages. This may be done through the discussion page.

If you cannot judge quality of writing, then you'd be better off leaving this review which is turning out to be a ridiculous essay. --Sulmues ^(talk) 02:15, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

This is my second request that you avoid bullying, stop claiming article ownership and be civil. I will leave this review when I'm done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Euzen (talk • contribs) 11:00, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

You are done. I retired the nomination because this article has many references which are missing the page. As a reviewer you have the responsibility to opine on each point required per Good Article, and you admit to fail the very first one. --Sulmues ^(talk) 23:21, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

2. Factually accurate and verifiable?

a) It provides references to very many sources but these are selected so as to conform to the point of view that Castrioti/Skanderbeg was a national Albanian in the sense that Albanian nationality is understood today. From the references are excluded those which support that Sk. was Serb, both from mother and father. It is true that some of these references are difficult to find and are in non-english languages. For instance, an important work is that of the German Karl Hopf, an expert in the medieval history of the Balkans who did original research in the Balkans and Italy. His work was published in German and I don't know if there is an english translation. Hopf supports that Sk. was a Catholic Serb. Also F. Blancus dedicates many pages of his work to examine the slavonic origin of Castriotae from the family of Tomco Marnavich (or Margnavich, or Margnavitius) although I am not sure if he finally accepts it as a certainty or not.

Please bring the source for either Hopf or Blancus. I really don't think you have read any of the above. --Sulmues ^(talk) 02:47, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

We may not mind what you think. Here I recommend and propose that YOU bring the sources. However, pages from both will be soon uploaded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Euzen (talk • contribs) 11:08, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Of course we don't expect that a wikipedia author is some kind of professor of history with white hair, but at least the author should refer to a small collection of titles with a different point of view or, at least, mention that there is such a category of works. In the discussion page some of us have repeatedly mentioned the theory of Serbian origin of Sk. offering references but the author and others hastily discard it as "serbian propaganda".
But if the assumption of serbian origin from both parents is excluded as not well founded, there is no excuse for the silence on Vojsava's origin. Barleti was almost contemporary to Sk. and contemporary to his children and he certainly had first-hand information on Sk's parents. He says that Vojsava was the daughter of a Triballian lord, which in the medieval terminology means a Serbian. This is a simple and short information that could be included in half a line in the article. But moving to the opposite direction, the article missinforms the reader comfortably adopting the name "Tripalda" (*) and by telling us that "Tripalda" was a family which is wrong.

I conclude this part recognizing again that access to such original sources is difficult because they are in "strange" languages, such as Greek and slavonic. However some extracts and abstracts in english can be found in many university libraries and even online. Interested users are willing to help if authors agree. Reading a latin text cannot be considered OR, because latin is a standard part of thousands of historians, is adequately understood by italian and french speakers and latin references are 100% verifiable.

I worked on the bibliography recently [1]. Feel free to include all the contemporary authors that would qualify as RS. --Sulmues ^(talk) 02:47, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

b) Some references do not verify the corresponding text. For example, the name "Vojsava Tripalda" points to Barleti as reference (No 7), but Barleti does not mention any "Tripalda". Instead he says that Vojsava was from a noble Triballian family ( ".. . nobilissimus Tribalorum princeps..."). References No 8 & 9 are supposed to support the "Tripalda family" but these are tertiary sources, translations of translations, and possibly biased. This distortion of the name is not a minor editorial issue but is quite important, as I will explain in my comments on neutrality.

(*) This "Tripalda" is taken from the Historia della casa Musachia, italian manuscripts from around 1600, published by Hopf. Unfamiliar names are heavily distorted and italized in those manuscripts (e.g. Moameto, Amuratto). Distortion of "Triballian" to "Tripalda" in Musachi's manuscript is an evidence that Musachis were unfamiliar with the name (or they were not happy with it either).

That's because Vojsava Tripalda is the name of the article. If you want to call her by primary sources, you ought to review that article first. --Sulmues ^(talk) 02:47, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Well said, if an article is created to support a name in another.

"Tripalda" is found in italian sources. This -da is a suffix that turns some names to female, while -do is for male, (e.g. Ronaldo - Ronalda) in latin languages. Actually means "Voisava the Tribaldian (lady)".

I propose that should appear as secondary name in parenthesis, as there are some more Voisavas in history and more articles may appear later.--Euzen (talk) 10:29, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

3. Broad in its coverage

You cannot have a broad coverage if you don't have a broad spectrum of references. Some aspects of "broadness of coverage" are discussed in the previous paragraph. I understand "broad coverage" not the full descripion of life from childhood to death but also the coverage of many points of view on the subject. The article can be broader if it includes at least the following:

- Coverage of all views regarding Skanderbeg's origin.

- A brief comment on the status of national identity and national geography in the area in the middle ages (15th-16th century). The reader has to understand what the historians of that period meaned by terms like "Albanian", "Serbian", "Greek", "Triballian" etc.

- A criticism on the biographies of Sk. It has been already recognized by Gibbon (and possibly by others earlier) that Barleti and other biographers exaggerated Skanderbeg's personality. Gibbon discribes Barleti's work as "a voluminous cloack with some false embellishments" in the footnotes of his History. Other contemporary byzantine historians do not even mention Sk. (like Doukas (historian), while others dedicate only few lines about him. The author does not have to include criticism on Sk/beg's biographies produced in Albania in the 20th century, but he could just mention the importance of Sk. as a basic element of Albania's national myth. Nothing is wrong in national myths in general and every nation or state has or should have one or more. But the outsider reader has to know this, and this only adds to the broadness of the article.

Primary sources will try to be avoided in future: we're going to use secondary sources. --Sulmues ^(talk) 02:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Euzen, I fully agree with you and everything you wrote on this page, especially in this subtitle about coverage. The way article is written now, it should be renamed to Skanderbeg in Albanian nationalistic mythology. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:02, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.

This is the main weak point of the article. I mentioned above some examples of this bias and here I will expand some more. Bias is obvious from the very first word of the article: "Gjergj". This is only the albanian version of the name, found mostly in tertiary albanian sources, but is not the name that is normally found in the original literature. All the existing biographies of Skanderbeg are mostly based on that of Marin Barleti. This biography no-where mentions Skanderbeg as "Gjergj" (http://www.albanian history.net/texts16-18/AH1510.html). Barleti's early translators refer to Sk. as "Georges" (Lavardin, 1576), "George" (Jones, 1596) or "Georgius" in latin. Another early biographer, Fank Bardhi/Franciscus Blancus in his 1636 book calls him "Georgius Castriotus" (See front page of his book at Frang Bardhi, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frang_Bardhi) and only in his 1635 "Dictionarium latino-epiroticum" (page 58) names him both "Georgius" in the latin text and "Gierg" in the albanian text. Therefore, the article in Wikipedia should start firstly with the latin name, not only for historical reasons but because this is the name that a scholar would like to look for in a library catalog or in a search machine. Interestingly, the Latin or other main europan language version of the name does not appear at the introduction of the article.

 Fixed by this edit and this other edit. The English source is to be first as per secondary sources, in addition provided the Latin one as per Bardhi. --Sulmues ^(talk) 21:13, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The "peculiar" selection and even alteration of original names characterizes the whole article.

Some more examples:

- According to Gibbon, Skanderbeg's father was Gjon Kastrioti, . However, Gibbon calls him "John Castriot", and so calls Huniades. The author(s) of the article retain the westernized name of John Huniades ("The rise", 2nd line) as in Gibbon and in most of literature, but arbitrarily change Castrioti's name into albanian. "John" is also the name of Skanderbeg's son (see "Descendants" section).

Gjon Kastrioti is the name of the article. We ought to go by English sources and I don't have a problem moving to John Castriot that page, unless someone else disagrees. --Sulmues ^(talk) 21:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

- Article says Skanderbeg allied with George Arianiti (born Gjergj Arianit Komneni, (The rise, line 15). Here there is some confusion. Firstly, the correct surname for a male is Komnenos, while Komneni is female. The author may be excused for not knowing the Greek grammar, but is expected to explain who called Arianiti "George" and who "Gjergj". Apart from the fact that in Orthodox Christian practice nobody is born with a name (the name is given several months after birth), if an author claims that someone is "born (name)" in the deep Balkans of 15th C., must cite some original reference supporting that (e.g. some archival material).

We ought to work on that article and I believe that article should be called Gjergj Arianiti. Not sure if we have contemporary sources to call him otherwise. Again we can't use primary sources in English Wikipedia. --Sulmues ^(talk) 21:22, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Not sure if we have contemporary sources to call him otherwise.

Reviewer: Plenty.

Which ones? --Sulmues ^(talk) 02:53, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

"Again we can't use primary sources in English Wikipedia".

Rev.: Why not??

Please read wp:secondary sources dear reviewer.--Sulmues ^(talk) 02:53, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

- Article says "daughter Andronike (born Marina Donika Arianiti") (line 16). The same phenomenon: While "Andronike" is the original and full name that any priest would officially give to a baptised child, a classical Greek name from "Aner" (man) and "Nike" (Victory), the author(s) claim the opposite, i.e. the child was "born" with the corrupted name "Donika" which was somehow later restored to the original. "Andronikos", the male name, is well established in history (e.g. Andronikos V Palaiologos and nobody dared yet to name him Donico or something. The motivation behind this fiddling with the name may be better understood if the reader review the history of the article Gjergj Arianit Komneni (View History), where some users (including one declaring himself as "Illyrian patriot") constantly erase the original names George and Andronike and replace them with the Albanian versions (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gjergj_Arianit_Komneni&diff=265830601&oldid=265677457).

Again, secondary sources should be used. Donika Kastrioti is the name of the article. You are doing OR here. We don't have any documentation on the priest that baptized Andronika. --Sulmues ^(talk) 21:28, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I accept the joke about priest. Andronike is an original name and if you cannot find it in medieval books I will find it for you.

Here you have one: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ALBANIA.htm

This site includes citations from "secondary sources" that you prefer. Citations are taken from a K. Hopf's work whom I mentioned earlier (references 189, 190 ...). Many names out of citations may be in albanian form (probably by an Albanian author) and some in slavonic, but inside citations are original and formal, i.e. latin or latinized Greek. See Ch. 4, "Arianiti":

"A manuscript which records details of the Musaki family names "la prima signora Andronica...". Notice that "Andronike" is found also out of citations several times, and not a single one "Donica". I wonder were you found that corrupted form. --Euzen (talk) 19:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

So, what are you arguing about now? The specific name "Donica"/"Andronika" aside, the source you just pointed to is just another proof that modern scholarship unanimously treats Sk. and his family as Albanians, and (sometimes, legitimately) Albanifies their names. Your whole argumentation here, above and below, is quite misguided: if you find that primary sources are using Latinate/Greek name forms but modern scholarship uses Albanian forms, that's not proof that the modern scholarship is "wrong" and the primary sources are "right". To the contrary: it's proof that modern scholarship doesn't consider that usage in the primary sources as an argument against their Albanianness, so stop using it as such. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:52, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

The reader will notice that many names of questionable or mixed or obscure nationality are linked to other Wikipedia articles (many of them stubs) where the reader is informed that the person is "albanian". For example, Gjergj Arianit Komneni is again "albanian" and has a "distant relation with the the famous Byzantine Komnenos dynasty from Asia Minor". However, more than a century later, in the manuscript that I mentioned above, Musachi says "È di bisognio notificarve, ..., che la Signora Scanderbega, il suo proprio nome era Andronica de casa Comninata Ò vero Comnino" (We need to notify ... that Lady's Scanderbeg proper name was Andronice from the House of Comneni, a true Comnene". Musachi also says that has blood ties with this lady. Musachi should have been more than happy that Comnenos' blood was in his and Sk's family tree, because Comneni was a realy noble family, directly related to Byzantine royalty, while their Albanian or Epirot roots involved only minor landlords and heads of obscure mountainous villages. Titles given to them later were only inexpensive rewards from their services as mercenaries by Italian despots and had no face value.
The repeated cross marriage between the noble families of that area is well established and is unquestionable. However, the article follows the logic "if one in the family is Albanian, all the family is Albanian". Certainly we are examining a highly phallocratic society of that period, when it was believed that "the father begets the children". Nevertheless, under todays values and scientific knowledge the mother's contribution to the family is considered equal to the father's and phallocratism and machism have no place in wikipedia articles. If the father is Albanian and the mother Serbian, the children are mixed. If the mother is not Serbian but comes from the Musachi family, again the lineage is mixed.
On the use of certain linked articles as auxiliaries of this article I had already commented earlier, but user Sulmues requested "quck delete" on the basis of some acrobatic arguments. May I assure the reader and any interested party that this issue is highly related and important for this review and the basis of recommendations that will follow. For the moment I will only recommend the editor(s) to re-examine the use of term "Albanian" in this article (if it has ethnic significance) and inform the reader on the possible mixed origins of most persons (including Sk. himself) or on the obscurity of family lines and ethnicities. If they do not agree on revisions, I will not insist, but I have the right to express my opinion. Further deletions of my review will be considered malevolent.--Euzen (talk) 17:57, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

The same albanization is applied on medieval toponyms. Notably, the names "Epirus" and "Epirotes" are almost eliminated and in most cases replaced by "Albania" and "Albanians". In the original sources, like Barleti and Blancus, the term "Epirus" is widely used and Skanderbeg himself is called "Epirotarum Princeps" (Prince of the Epirotes). Epirus, a geographical area wider than today's Albania, was then (as is today) inhabited by various ethnicities, mainly Albanians, Greeks and Slavs and secondary Latins, Gypsies and others. Indeed, Sk. allied with christians of all the local ethnicities in fighting the Turks, as I will explain later. "Epirus" and "Albania" are synonymous in Blancus ("Epirus seu Albania" in many parts of his text). Of course that Albania was only a geographical term and there were no states or borders. Consequently, people from that geographical area, independently of their language, religion or other collective identity, are called Epirotes or Albanians by contemporary authors viewing the area from the comfort of their european clubs. As I recommented earlier, the article should clarify the meaning of "Albanian" so that the reader does not get the false impression that national Albanians are meant. The word "Epirotes" should be used in cases that we are not sure even for the language of the people, for example for people with non-albanian names.

1. Albania at the context was equivalent with Epirus. You can consult your Gibbon for that and will find out that it was interchangeable. Can you please be more specific of such changes?
2. Please learn Italian "il suo proprio nome era Andronica de casa Comninata Ò vero Comnino", simply means "her name was Andronica from the Comninata house, i.e. Comnino". In old Italian O vero means ovvero (Latin:id est).--Sulmues ^(talk) 23:14, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

No different at all, at least when we are closer to the Byzantine period. See above.

Similarly other historical toponyms are changed. E.g. the classical "Dyrachium", appearing as such in relevant literature till 19th century, is changed to "Durres" which is the modern Albanian name. The encyclopedically correct approach would be the display of both names, so that the reader can verify the reference by searching in old books and position the place on a modern map.

Who told you that Dyrachium was the name of the city in the 15th century? Most of the primary sources will refer to it with Durazzo. --Sulmues ^(talk) 21:28, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Franciscus Blancus/Bardhi (1606-1643) told me. (Thanks for the question, Sulmues. The more you ask the more you get from primary sources):

In his book Georgius Castriotus Epirensis, vulgo Scanderbegh, p. 54: "Comneni a nobili Constantinopolitanorum genere loca littoralia tenebant Dyrachium, Aulonam, aliaque qua plura. It means (if I understand well) "Comneni (family) from a noble class of Constantinoble, (had) the litoral area of Dyrachium, Aulon ...". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Euzen (talk • contribs) 12:18, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

• Blancus wrote in Latin. AFAIK this is the English Wikipedia and works differently from the Latin one. --Sulmues ^(talk) 23:16, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

In general, the massive albanization of names in the article gives the unaware reader the impression that in Castrioti's time the whole area was inhabited by a single nation that is the ancestor of what is today ethnic Albanians.

If we have sources for today's Albania names we'll use those. Can you please be more specific? --Sulmues ^(talk) 21:30, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

But even when the names retain their original, non-albanian form, the nationality of the person is arbitrarily ascribed as "albanian". For example, "... managed to capture some important Albanian noblemens, including ... Vladan Giurica ..." (The Last Years). In this case the man has the typical serbian name Vladan (and common to all slavic world) but the author insists that he is albanian. Is the author aware of any "ethnicity declaration" of Vladan?

All the sources that we have report Vladan GJURICA as an Albanian. The name "Vladan" is a form of Vladimir, and you may know that Saint Jovan Vladimir was very cherished in Albania: actually his remains are still there. The use of Serbian names was widespread in Albania at that time. In addition there is a settlement close to Durres with the name of Gjurica. --Sulmues ^(talk) 21:33, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Certainly, because Slavs were present in Albania. This is what I am saying: "Albanian" means "coming from the area of Albania" for contemporary authors.

In other cases whole groups of people (such as soldiers) are collectively called "Albanians", although the historical research leads to a different conclusion. Of course this collective "albanization" of thousands of persons may be found also in prominent historic works as Gibbon's history. But since Gibbon the science of history has progressed and new data are available. These new data should have their place in an article as lengthy as the one we are reviewing. One can notice that the volume of this article about a brave local hero who had a secondary role in history, surpasses that of Alexander the Great and is comparable to Napoleon I. This is not bad at all, but such a long article should accomodate more points of view and opinions other than those of the Albanian encyclopedias. A good example of this aspect is the article on John Hunyadi, a contemporary and co-fighter of Castrioti. That article starts by displaying Hunyadis names in six (6) relevant languages, but most importantly, under the section "Legacy" recognizes that Hunyadi is part of a national myth and is claimed by more than one nations, including Hungarians and Romanians. This is a good example of a Good Article, at least from the neutrality point of view.

Please be more specific in your review and tell exactly what passage of the article has an "albanization". Whether Skanderbeg was or not as relevant as the heroes you mentioned above is disputable: they lived in different periods. As far as John Hunyadi is concerned: his article is not a good example as it has not reached GA status, which we are trying to achieve. However I am giving the latin version in the lede which is how we have the majority of the source. --Sulmues ^(talk) 21:37, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

But I wish to explain briefly why the so called "Albanian" fighters of Castrioti's are not necessarily of Albanian ethnicity but a mixture of ethnic Albanians, Greeks, Serbians and others of obscure or no ethnicity. After all we must have in mind (and the article should remind us) that we are in a period when many nations have not emerged yet, and for many people religious segregation was more important than national. Some information about those "Albanian" armies comes to us in relation to their expedition in South Italy and subsequent service as mercenaries in various countries, known under the Greek term "Stratioti".

Please review the Stratioti article well and you'll realize that 80% of the Stratioti were Albanians, but it wouldn't be an argument anyways because that is after Skanderbeg's death. Were there soldiers of Skanderbeg of another descent, other than Albanian? Possibly yes: Sfetigrad had Macedonians at that time, and that is confirmed by some sources, in addition there were some forces sent by the Vatican and the Kingdom of Naples, but only around 50 according to sources, and completely ininfluent as they didn't seem to adopt themselves to the tactics used by Skanderbeg's army: they were used to open field battles, which was not what was followed by Skanderbeg's army at that time; in addition their horses seemed to be too heavy for the Albanian mountains. I am not aware of ANY Greeks or Serbs to have fought under Skanderbeg though, you are welcome to show me some sources on that. Skanderbeg called himself Prince of the Albanians and of the Epirotes, and there were Greeks in Epirus at that time, but all the battles have occurred in northern Albania with some exceptions of Devoll and Berat (alas this one a loss for Skanderbeg), which are settlements with no Greek presence at that time. --Sulmues ^(talk) 21:40, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

"Epirotes" and "Albanians", as "Epirus" and "Albania", are used interchangeably in sources of that time, mainly Barleti and Blancus. They have clearly a geographical meaning. Blancus repeats so many times "Epirus seu Albania" as if he wants to underline this synonymy. For some reason Blancus is investigating these terms as were used in epistles, historical texts etc. It is possible that either some debate or missunderstanding was emerging already or the term "Epirus" was not familiar to the new readers. Here is only one example:

"Vide quam vnanimiter ab omnibus Scanderbegus Albanesius, seù Epirota nuncupetur, & existimetur, vt pro nunc relinquam Annales Turcicos, qui eù passim Arnatum, hoc est Epirottam vocant, Leunclauiú, qui eum Arbanosium (quae vox Illyrica est, & Albanesium significant) apellat .... " (page 62).

Notice that even "Arnavut" is considered synonymous to "Epirot". Surely in his time (17th c.) "Epirus" was becaming archaic and was gradually replaced by the latin "Albania", something understandable as the Greek influence on literature had almost ceased. In later sources (e.g. Gibbon) we rarely find "Epirus" and "Epirotes" when referring to 16th c. This was done in good faith as Gibbon was accepting the synonymy established by the primary sources. This good faith cannot be presumed in authors after 19th c. as the Albanian nation becomes a recognizable entity and the Albanian state is on the making. The term "Epirus" re-appears again in 19th c. (in travel literature etc) but frequently in relation to ethnic Greeks or in geographical or political context.
The study on "stradioti" mentioned above involves names but no nationalities. On the connection between names and nationalities we may discuss elsewhere, as we agree that names do not always indicate nationality (see debate about Vladan).

For this article I propose that frequent use of epithet "Albanian" is avoided unless it is clear that it refers to someone who possibly was considering himself Albanian at that time. Alternatively (and preferably as is very unlikely that someone declared nationality), a paragraph should be added to explain the meaning of "Epirus" and "Albania" as it evolves in primary, secondary and tertiary sources accordingly. This will be both encyclopedical and fair.--Euzen (talk) 11:30, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

5. Is it stable?
Not very, but really needs more revisions and editions. So, let it roll.

6. Use of images
I think it's OK. The pictures of Alfonso of Aragon and Ferdinand of Naples could be removed without much loss, so that the article gets a bit shorter. --Euzen (talk) 08:44, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

 Fixed --Vinie007 14:59, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

May I ask who is the nominator, since User:Sulmues removed the nomination tag?Alexikoua (talk) 22:40, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to summarize all non resolved issues

In last souple of weeks text of the article has been significantly changed (unfortunatelly I can not say this for POV in the article) and therefore I propose to extract all non resolved issues based on this review and all talk pages in archive and to try to work on solutions by focusing on each issue. I am preparing list of non resolved issues here and I propose that we use talk page of this article in order to prepare undisputed list of nonresolved issues that should be tranfered here on this talk page and then resolved by joint efforts. GA nomination is not important, what is important is that we really make this article GA. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:17, 23 November 2010 (UTC)--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:17, 23 November 2010 (UTC)]

Sounds good and thank you for your help with improving this article. Some of the issues that you bring up for the ethnicity, I forecast will have very lengthy discussion, so I believe we'd be better off leaving them in the talk page, rather than in the GAN page, and then the results of those discussions can go to the GAN. If you think that the nomination should fail for now because the differences are irreconciable for now, than let me know, and I'll retire this second nomination. --Sulmuesi (talk) 16:45, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I did not have any intention to discuss anything on GAN page.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:04, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator has already been warned by the Cavalry about WP:IDHT, so he shouldn't make any further comments regarding ethnicity because there has been a RfC [2] and numerous other discussions, which he can find in the archives.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 18:43, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

That RfC should be repeated, with more then one editor commenting. And if we sometimes discuss it, that doesn't mean that all is agreed. As you may see, numerous editors still finds this question as unanswered. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 15:11, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with WhiteWriter.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:55, 2 December 2010 (UTC)