This is an archive of past discussions about Siege of Scutari (1912–1913). Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
I wouldn't call it a Montenegrin/Serbian victory. First of all, the number of Serbs wasn't very significant compared to the Montenegrins. And the important fact is that Serbs gave up on Skadar and withdrew their divisions before the Montenegrins managed to capture the city.
Check out this link. It's Serbian newspaper article about King Nicholas. And here's the part about siege of Skadar:
Borba za Skadar
Primirje sa Turskom potpisano je 3. decembra, ali su borbe za Skadar obnovljene između 7. i 9. februara 1913. godine. Srpska vlada uputila je specijalni korpus sa artiljerijom kao pomoć Crnoj Gori, ali su velike sile u oštrom demaršu zahtevale da se odustane od opsade Skadra, te su se srpske trupe povukle. U crnogorske jadranske vode čak je uplovilo osam ratnih brodova velikih sila. Crnogorske trupe koje su 10. aprila zauzele su Skadar, po nalogu velikih sila morale su se povući, a u grad su 14. maja ušle trupe međunarodnih snaga.
Translation
Fighting for Skadar
Ceasefire with Turkey was signed on 3rd December, but fightings for Skadar had been renewed between 7th and 9th february in 1913. Serbian goverment sent a special corpus with artillery as support to Montenegro, but great powers, in a firm demarche, demended the siege of Skadar to be ended, so Serbian troops withdrew. Eight war ships of great powers sailed into the Montenegrin Adriatic waters. Montenegrin troops, who took Skadar on 10th April, had to withdraw by the behest of great powers, and on 14th May international forces entered the city.
This was the first reference I ran onto. There is certainly a lot more, but I don't have the time to search for it. Maybe I'll do it later. For now, if anyone is willing he can do a little research, and confirm what I said. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.155.40.73 (talk) 18:27, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Removal of referenced information
This is your final warning for removing referenced information, Rave92. [1]
"22 April: Serbs conquer Shkoder"
"Montenegrins thought that they came out as a main victors from the both Balkan Wars despite the heavy casualties they suffered. However, the costly capture of Albanian town Shkoder (Skadar) was futile since Nicholas I was put under pressure by the Great Powers to hand it over to the international supervision. "
@Kansas Bear, it's a known fact that Serbs retreated before the fall of Skadar. The statement that the Serbs alone conquered Skadar is a complete nonsense. Their troops didn't even stay till the fall of Skadar. They retreated. Serbia didn't want a conflict with The Great Powers, who decided to give Skadar to Albania. Did you check out the newspaper article? It's Serbian newspaper. And there is no reason for them to deny their own succes if they had stayed there till the end. Here's the link to the front page:
http://www.glas-javnosti.rs/95.155.59.105 (talk) 15:40, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Requested move 2010
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Lead
I just added a short lead section per WP:LEAD. I know nothing about the battle/siege, just cobbled the lead together from the rest of the article - experts please review and tweak as necessary. – ukexpat (talk) 18:09, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Movereq
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Oppose move. Most of the results in Siege of Scutari (even the very first one) refer to the Ottoman Empire Siege to Shkoder in 1478, not the one in 1912-1913. The 1478 siege was made known to the Western World by Marin Barleti, who wrote in an Italian world (Padova and Venezia), so the Italian word Scutari was used. While I have nothing against calling Siege of Scutari the 1478 event (which still doesn't have an article), this one is to be called Siege of Shkoder, for many reasons, but the most important being that at 1912-1913 the city was called by the "Shkoder" name in national and most of the international sources. In fact the independence of Albania had been declared in 1912. --Sulmues(talk)13:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
1920 map of Albania. Notice "Scutari".I challenge you to find any English source using "Shkoder" in 1912-1913. The current Albanian orthography was only invented in 1910 (read about it here on Wikipedia) and the spelling wasn't widely used in Albania until after World War I and in English until around World War II. Images of English maps here, here (spelt with a "k"), here, and more current maps here and here. — AjaxSmack 18:24, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
Comment Not as clearcut as it may seem. Although Google Books overwhelmingly plumps for Siege of Scutari, it's a different result completely on a Google web search in English. Siege of Scutari plus 1913 but excluding Wikipedia gives 293 results; Siege of Shkodër plus 1913 excluding Wikipedia gives 1,660 hits. I am not certain that, so far, there is a clear common usage in English. Skinsmoke (talk) 06:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Strongly support. It's in 1913; the English name for the city at that time was and is Scutari - see, for example, Sir Edward Grey's memoirs. Using Skhoder anachronistically is precisely like insisting on Siege of Volgograd, or writing about the foundation of Istanbul in the seventh century BC. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson18:07, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
But the city was still called Scutari in English until much later. It wasn't even consistently written Shkodër in Albanian until later when the orthography was settled. — AjaxSmack 02:03, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Comment. Persons reading this may or may not know that a related discussion has been raging on Talk:Occupation of Albania (1912-1913) page for more than two weeks. The arguments are similar and unquestionably, the outcome of one will determin the other for the same reasons. I have hitherto opposed Albanians and should therefore support this proposal. However, I will abstain from voting here as we all know the principles and attitutes by now. One party looks at legal issues/English usage and the other favours de facto measures by the Albanian administration; neither party convinces the other of the weight of its argument and so this is another deadlock. Consensus cannot be achieved. Evlekis (Евлекис) 02:09, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Do you really think it's more easy to understand in what city the war was if we use the old names, and BTW Scutari is never used by the Albanians, the war is known as luften ë Shkodrës (English: Siege of Shkodër) --Vinie00719:18, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
That is a different argument not related to the issue at hand. The procedure is to observe the settlement name in English, and where these have changed, you need to use the name of the place at the time. If not, we'd talk of Slavic migrations settling in Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegvoina, Kosovo, Bulgaria and Republic of Macedonia before some places even developed their names. Evlekis (Евлекис) 19:28, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
@Vinie: that argument is completely irrelevant. No one today knows where Sorovich is (it's called Amyntaio), and people would be challenged to find Adrianople on the map. These names are historical, referring to equally historical events. We are not meant to retroactively name events just for our own convenience. That is also why we don't have the "Siege of Istanbul" or "Battle of Edirne". Constantine ✍ 20:02, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
Don't act all shocked about usage for historical events differing form current placenames. Plenty of examples have been given of similar usage in English and it's done in other languages too (e.g., Republika e Raguzës, Beteja e Stalingradit, Kampi Auschwitz-Birkenau). English usage for this event is predominantly "Scutari" and not "Shkode/ër" and Wikipedia should reflect that. — AjaxSmack 23:32, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Dating of the battle/siege
The section "Battle" seems to make clear that the siege started in October 1912, and ended in April 1913.
However, the lead and the info box both gave the April date as the time the siege/battle happened.
Is this potentially wrong/misleading, or am I misunderstanding something?
If I am understanding it correctly, I propose it would be better for both lead and info box to give both the start and end dates, rather than only mentioning the end date as though it were the start date (or a one day battle). What do people think?
--Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:57, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
are performed without the slightest discussion, not even edit summaries.
Essad Pasha Toptani was loyal to the Ottoman Empire and considered Provisional government under Ismail Qemali "the personal creation of a number of men" Toptani, Essad Pasha (April 16, 1919). "Memorandum on Albania". Paris, France: Robert Elsie web site. governments ... in Vlora under the presidency of Ismail Kemal Bey ... was the personal creation of a number of men{{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |month= (help)
It is incorrect and misleading to state that he was soldier of the Provisional Government and that forces under his command were anything else but Ottoman forces.
Vinnie007, please revert your last edit and seek for consensus on the talk page if you want to perform such dramatic changes to the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:35, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Vinnie007, why don't you participate in discussion about your changes? You added flag of Albania from the year 1914 into infobox of the article about event from 1912 and 1913, in front of information about volunteers of Albanian ethnicity who joined Ottoman army. Don't you think it is incorrect?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:13, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
^A Peace treath signed by Esad Pasha and King Nikola, Montenegrin and Serbian sieze city for aproximal one week[1]and on May 1913 the city was given to the Albanian forces, while Serbian and Montenegrin forces retreat
This because the serbs/montenegrin didn't win, the city was given to them by the Albanian/Turkish forces and held it for a short time. I woulnd call this a victory but inconclusive. --Vinie00720:05, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Oppose: The name of the article is Siege of Shkoder. The reference states that the Serbs won a victory. What occurs afterwards is not relevant to nor changes the perspective of the siege which had already ended. Information within articles on Wikipedia should be supported by reliable sources not the personal opinion of an editor. ~Side note~ Vinie007 has changed/removed this reference and corresponding information twice, without discussion or consensus. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:38, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Comment, I didn't remove, i moved it to a note. BTW, the Albanians won the battle, but Essad Pasha as commander didn't stand the pressure and signed the threaty. So the treaty wasn't part of the battle --Vinie00721:05, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
For that reason Essad Pasha killed Hasan Riza because he wanted to keep the city, but the montenegrin/serbian diplomacy made Essad Pasha to kill him and to hand over the city. As said above the treaty wasn't part of the war --Vinie00721:14, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Oppose. Besides already mentioned arguments, the proposal is incorrect because Albanian forces did not take over the city, but forces of Great Powers. Even pro-Albanian author Miranda Vickers says here that King of Montenegro was "placing Shkoder in the hands of the Powers. On 15 May the city passed to British Royal Navy".--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:41, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
The Serbian army retreated about two weeks before the surrender [4] i.e it's just a Montenegrin success. This isn't a battle that ended a war etc., so anything as simple as defeat/victory isn't enough. --— ZjarriRrethues —talk23:24, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
The Serbian troops left on April 10 but their artillery remained, which was used by the Montenegrins. Regardless of when the Serbs left, their impact(at one point the siege was under Serbian command) on the siege was substantial.(The Balkan Wars 1912-1913, Richard Hall, p93-94)
The Encyclopedia Americana: a library of universal knowledge, Volume 3, page 90, "Montenegro's persistence had its reward in the capitulation of Essad Pasha and Scutari on 22 April 1913. However, she was to enjoy the fruit of her victory but a short time."
The Interior, Volume 44, by Arthur Swazey, Cornelius Van Santvoord, "The fighting was as fierce and bloody as in ancient times, but it won for the little kingdom the Turk's last stronghold on his western frontier. The victory came late...". --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:33, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Total number of dead soldiers of Serbia and Montenegro during the the First Balkan War were about 5.000 (Serbia) and 2.836 (Montenegro) (see the article about the First Balkan War). In this article it is stated that there were 30.000 killed Serbian and Montenegrin soldiers (22.000+8.000) during this siege only. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:31, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
I checked it for casualties of Kingdom of Serbia. Here you can check it yourself. It clearly state (page 120) 5.000 dead and 18.000 wounded. " Σερβοτουρκικός πόλεμος: Νεκροί: 5.000, τραυματί-ες: 18.000". --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:15, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
That is number of casualties in the whole war which part was the siege of Shkoder. It is impossible that 5.000 soldiers of Kingdom of Serbia was killed in the whole war and 22.000 in this siege only.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:28, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree. It's impossible that Serbia lost more than a few men at Scutari, because they retreated only a few days after they arrived, due to international pressure (Italy and Austro-Hungary). And during those days they didn't make a head-on attack. They just supported Montenegrin forces with their artillery. On the other hand Montenegro had 3000-4000 killed and 5000 wounded soldiers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.155.4.220 (talk) 15:09, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
Essad Pasha's betrayal?
Resolved
"10 thousand volunteers from Mirdite, led by General Essad Toptani managed to enter the city."
Essad Pasha defended the city after Riza Pasha was killed for almost three more months (January 30 — April 23).
He surrendered Shkoder to Montenegro only after its destiny was decided by Great Powers, after they forced Serbia to retreat and after it was obvious that Great Powers will not allow Montenegro to keep Shkoder. That way he saved many lives of his soldiers who would otherwise die defending the city without any reason. At the same time, he managed to get support of Serbia and Montenegro for new Kingdom of Albania which would gain Shkoder anyway. I can not imagine more clever move. What is the reason for absurd claim that Essad Pasha was a traitor?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:06, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
In my eyes he is not a traitor and i agree with your opinion. Because we both agree with it, i am going to put it in the article. --Vinie00711:22, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Definition of betrayal
(Unindent)I would like the definition of betrayal from you guys. "April 21, 1913 ...Esad Pasha Toptani, now military governor of Shkoder, sent a message to the Montenegrin General to inform him off his intention to surrender to the king Nicholas of Montenegro the town of Shkodër and the whole of northern Albania as far as the river Drin, on conditions that he would be allowed to march freely into the interior of Albania...Furthermore Esad Pasha desired to receive Montenegrin recognition of himself as Prince of central Albania under the protection of Sultan of Turkey....April 23, 1913 ...As the result of Esad Pasha treachery the fortress of Shkoder was surrendered to Montenegro.....According to the terms of surrender settlement Esad Pasha accepted the sum of 10.000 sterling ...April 27, 1913 Esad Pasha declared himself as King of Albania in Lezhe........April 28, By unanimous decision the of the conference of ambassadors in London, the representatives notified King Nicholas of Montenegro that he had to give up city of Shkoder, but it was evident that only by military coercion could the order be inforced ...."" 1. October 14th Esad Pasha anounced ...the formation of a new government of his own at Durres with himself as President-apparently with the object of having himself elected as Prince of Albania- for the administration of the country between rivers Mat and Shkumbin...Esad Pasha informed the Internationl Comission of his decision... 2.....So
November 1912...Albania declares independence. Albanian delegates were from 4 Ottoman villayets.
December 1912..Conference of Ambassadors began its work on deciding Balkan borders ()
January 1913..Albanian delegation goes to London and they ask for terrotories at Peje, Shkup, Bitola, but they were told by Conference authorities that their northern borders were already decided 3
March 22, 1913...The city of Shkoder and its surrounding were given to Albania, the northern border was defined ...(pretty much the existing one) 4
April 21, 1913....Esad wants to surrender to the king Nicholas of Montenegro the town of Shkodër and the whole of northern Albania as far as the river Drin on a condition that he would be recognized as Prince of central Albania under the protection of Sultan of Turkey
April 23, 1913 ...As the result of Esad Pasha treachery the fortress of Shkoder was surrendered to Montenegro.....According to the terms of surrender settlement Esad Pasha accepted the sum of 10.000 sterling.
April 27, 1913... Esad Pasha declared himself as King of Albania in Lezhe...
His plan didn't worked as he planned but he tried again...
October 14th Esad Pasha anounced ...the formation of a new government of his own at Durres with himself as President-apparently with the object of having himself elected as Prince of Albania- for the administration of the country between rivers Mat and Shkumbin...Esad Pasha informed the Internationl Comission of his decision...
Now what the heck?! This guy was selling part of his country (he wanted only central Albania while more extended borders were decided in the meantime) to the neighbors, while wanting to become prince of Albania under sultan (and what about Albanian independence). Surely he was not a TRAITOR to the Serbs, Montenegrin and Greeks(how could he being an Albanian), but it was a BIG ONE for the Albanians (and I am not including his later deeds. This kind of behavior should be reflected in the article. Aigest (talk) 13:56, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
This article is about Siege of Shkoder. If you think that he was traitor because he "wanted only central Albania while more extended borders were decided in the meantime" that is subject for discussion in another article. Borders of Albania were not decided when he surrended the Shkoder.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:01, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
How do you find this unrelated?! He killed the (brave) Turkish commander Riza Pasha, so he could surrender the city in return for some lands in central Albania and 10000 sterlings. It is obvious the great link between Siege of Shkoder and Treason concept, unless you have an alternative idea of treason concept. Aigest (talk) 14:14, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Also, it is a fact that authors of the Shkoder version are much less numerous than those of Scutari version. Besides, there are very well reputable authors, like Kenneth M. Setton, who support Scutari version.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Siege of Scutari (1474)
I think that there should be an article on 1474 siege, but there isn't much information on this siege. It was fought between Venice and Ottoman Empire in period between 15 July and 28 August in 1474. Ottoman army had 80000 soldiers, who were led by Hadim Suleiman Pasha. Defending forces in the city had 13000-16000 soldiers, under the command of Antonio Loredan. Scutari was totally cut off of the Venetian Republic and they couldn't send any help, so they turned to Ivan Crnojevic, ruler of Montenegro, who was their ally. Ivan sent 8000 Montenegrins to Scutari to relieve the defenders. After the Ottomans found out of the movement of the Montenegrin army they sent 12000 of their soldiers to counter the Montenegrins. The armies met and fought at a mountainous area, south of the Skadar lake. After hearing the false reports of more Venetian reinforcements, Sultan Medmed II withdrew his army both from the side of the lake and walls of Scutari. Therefore, the siege failed. Ottoman forces had 7000 dead. Venetian and Montenegrin losses - unknown. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.155.4.220 (talk) 17:59, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Support. Suggest (First Balkan War) and (Skanderbeg) as disambiguators, as clearer. This siege may be primary usage, however, since the other Great Powers involved themselves. SeptentrionalisPMAnderson00:26, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Possible copyright problem
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original orplagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa (talk) 22:42, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
^Somel, Selçuk Akşin. Historical dictionary of the Ottoman Empire. Scarecrow Press Inc. 2003. lxvi.
.jpg)
Resolved