Talk:Siege of Panhala (1660)

Surrendered?

@Kemilliogolgi

• The source Dictionary of Battles and Sieges: A Guide to 8,500 Battles from Antiquity through the Twenty-first Century. you have cited for Shivaji's surrender doesn't support your claim. Panhala finally had to surrender when Sultan Ali Adil Shah sent further reinforcements. Here it talks about Panhala surrendered not Shivaji.
• Coming to this source Maratha Generals and Personalities: A gist of great personalities of Marathas. which is not even WP:RS as it is itself sourced from Wikipedia. So stop adding non reliable sources and refrain from doing POVish editing.

Sudsahab (talk) 06:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello!

@Sudsahab

•I am here to assist you with my sources regarding surrender of Shivaji.

1)Here the first source you mentioned cites Maratha commander Shivaji killed the Bijapur General Afzal Khan at Pratabgarh then cap- tured Panhala near Kolhapur, where he was be- sieged by the Bijapur army under Fazl Khan, son of the murdered General. Shivaji fled after the fall of nearby Pavingarh (13 July) and Panhala finally had to surrender when Sultan Ali Adil Shah sent further reinforcements (2 March-22 September 1660)[1]

This source mentioned about the surrender of forts(i.e. Panhala and Pavangad).

2)I had added a source which was a non reliable and written Jadunath Sarkar. It claimed that Shivaji surrendered panhala fort to Siddi Jauhar and sued peace

3)Now I have added the sources that clearly cites that Shivaji surrendered the fort.

Shivaji turned the tables on his redoubtable adversary at great personal risk . His escape from Panhala threw the Bijapuri effort out of gear . Shivaji surrendered the fort to the Sultan and concentrated all his strength against...[2]pages=XIII

4)The other source with the clear mention about his surrender is as follows:

"At that time, Shivaji was engaged in the defence of Panhala against Bijapur. The Mughal attack on his territories compelled him to conclude peace with Bijapur by the surrender of Panhala.".[3] pg.542-543

5)@Sudsahab The further source mentions: In 1660, Siddi Johar's huge and daunting army attacked him at Panhala fort. Shivaji managed to escape from the fort. However, he soon launched an attack on Siddi Johar.The result was the surrender of Panhala and a truce between Shivaji and Adilshah.[4] I have provided the sources about the "clear mention" of surrender as you wished.And I hope that you will check them carefully.If there is any problem associated with the sources than you may drop a message to my talk page.Regards!!

Kemilliogolgi (talk) 09:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• 1) You have yourself committed in boldings that This source mentioned about the surrender of forts(i.e. Panhala and Pavangad). again the kiledar (commander) of the fort surrendered not Shivaji.
• 2) What's the point of quoting the source which is not WP:RS?
• 3) Not found any relevant context in the given source's given page XIII (13?) only accessed sources through keyword searching and still didn't find that Shivaji surrendered. If you have access or have a pdf of the book then please do share.
• 4) Found only this as a reliable source.
• 5) I'm okay with this too if you provide page no and pdf of the source but can't verify through your link.
• Suggestion- remove the sources which do not support the surrender of Panhala fort by Shivaji.

Sudsahab (talk) 12:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Sure,I can help you regarding the 3rd source that I have mentioned above.

3)[5] open the citation and search (redoubtable)

5) As the book does not contains page numbers,you need to find it by searching the mentioned para.

The main reason for 1st and 2nd sources such that we will get clear that fort was "surrendered".And the 2nd one is not WP:RS but it contains the same context about surrender.I mentioned this to make it easy for you to easily get the point of the next sources.

Hope,This will help you to get sources easily.Thanks!! Kemilliogolgi (talk) 13:02, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Again found nothing by keyword searching "redoubtable". It's kinda weird. If you have no access to the book then how did you read it and then cite in the article? You're giving page numbers which indicate that you aren't sure about your own cited source. Anyways, 1st source is clear about the event: Shivaji fled after the fall of nearby Pavingarh. Note that it says fled not surrendered please refrain from making your own conjectures. Remove it, you could cite better sources for his surrender but not the one which doesn't assert surrender of Shivaji Sudsahab (talk) 14:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Sir, I think there is any problem that you are unable to read the mentioned para.I am able to read the snippet related to the context in this book.However,I can still help you by providing the screenshot of book and the snippet.[6].

Check->[7][8].

I hope you got the enough sources to get clear about the surrender of Shivaji. I am re-mentioning the all sources for your better assistance.

1)[9] pg 542-543

2)Check->[10][11].

3)[12]

Thanks!! Kemilliogolgi (talk) 01:46, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

It's ok, you don't need to call anyone by "Sir" on Wikipedia, I'm not senior to you.

Providing the screenshots of the snippet is appreciated, I can now verify through it and thanks for coming to consensus that some sources didn't says such, best regards. Sudsahab (talk) 02:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Here from WP:RSN. Just to say the practices of using a Google book search such as this[13] doesn't produce usable references. The problem is that Google is only showing a snippet and not the context of what you can see.
The snippet of text you can see could just be part of a larger quote that the works author then goes on to say isn't true, or not you can't tell. Unless you have access to the work so you can see the text in the context of the wider page you shouldn't use something like this for the purposes of verification. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct that we can't consider a snippet as a complete source.But i have mentioned not only a single but around 12-13 books.Most of them having a complete context.

Here as you are talking about source[14] Pg.XIII<---- This source is mentioned as a secondary to confirm the surrender of any individual.Here this book contains the snippet which clearly explained the context about surrender of that individual.Not the whole context is taken from this book but it is added to confirm the context of surrender.

The another point is about the preview of book so I have already added the screenshot of the book as i have access of the snippet related to surrender.Still i have given 2 more books related to the surrender of that person with complete preview.

[15]

,,[16]

,,[17]

,,[18]

,,[19] Pg XIII

And around 8 more sources.

Hope,You will check the complete context as well as th sources carefully.If there is any inconvenience than drop a message here.Thanks!! Kemilliogolgi (talk) 01:31, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Involvement of EIC

@Sudsahab, just a quote will be enough. Provide a quotation where it says that the Bijapur Sultanate was supported by the EIC during the siege. According to the source that cited, it just says the EIC troops marched for Panhala in April 1660, and it doesn't says "whom they supported" nor "their intention" nor "did they succeeded backing the Bijapur up", not even if they reached Panhala. Imperial^[AFCND] 16:16, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Sudsahab, still waiting for the reply. Please admit it if that was a mistake. Else I will be up here waiting for the reply.Imperial^[AFCND] 18:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

An event occurred now which was to have far-reaching effects upon the relations between Shivaji and the English. Henry Revington, the meddlesome and presumptuous chief of the English trading station at Rajapur, was trying to sell some mortar pieces and grenades to the Adilshahi nobleman Rustam-i Zaman To him the siege of Panhala appeared to be an excellent opportunity to strike a good deal and he immediately opened correspondence with the Adilshah and Siddi Jauhar. The latter asked for a sample and sent some of his men to Rajapur. Whereupon Revington with two of his colleagues — Philip Giffard and William Mingham, the gunner employed by the Rajapur factors — and the Rajapur factory’s Hindu broker Veljee set out on 2 April 1660 with one mortar and fifty “granado shells” to give an on-site demonstration Marching by way of Raypatan and the Anuskura pass they arrived at Kolhapur, met an escort, including a palanquin and a horse sent by Jauhar, and were conducted to the besiegers’ camp to be courteously received by the Adilshahi commander himself. How the demonstration went we do not know but it appears from a letter from Revington’s colleagues who were left at Rajapur that Jauhar showed his willingness to buy the English wares and that Revington had proposed to accept, in lieu of cash payment, the remission of duty on any saltpeter the English might buy in future. By 15 May 1660, Richard Taylor and Rowland Garway, who were at Rajapur, had also joined their colleagues at Panhala. By 5 June 1660 Richard Napier too was with them at Kolhapur where Jauhar might have set up his base camp.The correspondence of these Englishmen shows that they alternated between Panhala and Kolhapur at least till 12 October 1660Mehendale. p. 459.

Here, and that was not a mistake. Sudsahab (talk) 19:09, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Selling weapons in battles doesnt make anyone the participant of it. Keep that in mind, as it might be helpful. Imperial^[AFCND] 19:23, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Did you only read a few upper lines?

• By 15 May 1660, Richard Taylor and Rowland Garway, who were at Rajapur, had also joined their colleagues at Panhala. By 5 June 1660 Richard Napier too was with them at Kolhapur where Jauhar might have set up his base camp.The correspondence of these Englishmen shows that they alternated between Panhala and Kolhapur at least till 12 October 1660. Read these too.
• Salabat Khan in the meantime approached the English factors of Rajapur for ammunition and some English gunners, who could create havoc among the defenders of Panhala. Revington, the Chief of the factory with his assistants Mingham and Gifford, came with an efficient heavy gun and ammunition to the help of Salabat Khan. This European gunnery proved highly effective and made Shivaji’s position altogether untenable. This wanton interference of the English merchants of Rajapur rightly gave offence to Shivaji and made him take to reprisals with serious consequences for the English as will be noticed later. excerpts from New history of the Marathas vol. 1. p. 139

Sudsahab (talk) 04:03, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

You should also know that Seizure of Rajapur was in the reaction of Shivaji to the EIC for supporting the Bijapur Sultanate in Panhala.

• Shivaji appointed Netaji Palkar to look after the Mughals, and he himself rapidly moved against Rajapur as much to wreak his vengeance upon the English factors for their wanton interference at the siege of Panhala. excerpts from New history of the Marathas vol. 1. p. 144.

I hope you won't revert my edit anymore, very thanks. Sudsahab (talk) 04:04, 12 April 2024 (UTC)