Talk:Sidesaddle

Anne of Bohemia

The person who credited her was a 16th century historian, John Stow. This bit of information has often been repeated ad nauseum, on the Internet. The Empress Matilida, while fleeing Winchester in 1141, was forced to ride in "the male fashion" in order to increase her party's pace so they could escape.129.83.31.3 (talk) 15:50, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Women rode astride for millennia, the point was the sidesaddle was associated with European nobility and elaborate dress. Not sure what point you are trying to make here. If you have a source for John Stow, please provide it. The material on Matilda, likewise. There is, of course, amble evidence that ladies rode pillion or sat sideways on horses in other ways, long before there was a practical sidesaddle. So, don't rant, show us the evidence. Google books can be your friend if you need to provide a URL. Montanabw^(talk) 21:46, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Giraldus Cambrensis notes in his Topographia Hibernica ("Topography of Ireland", 1187) that Irish women are peculiar in that they ride astride, when normally women ride aside, of course. So sidesaddles were the norm in England in the 12th century, probably throughout Europe. Really, just because someone can source the "Anne of Bohemia invented it" myth to some giggly amateur site, do we have to perpetuate it? Azarolli shows sidesaddle riders in Mesopotamia in 3000 BCE, FHS. 141.239.177.153 (talk) 16:56, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Why always left?

One notices in sidesaddle both feet are always on the left side of the horse. Conceivably the other way, both feet on the right side of the horse, could be just as appropriate. Why was the left side uniformly chosen? Contact Basemetal here 03:23, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I can't source it easily for sidesaddle, but my guess is that it's because horses in western culture are handled and mounted from the left; the majority of people are right-handed, and for astride riders, men wore their swords on their left side (to draw with right hand) and hence it was easier to throw their right leg over the saddle. Also, basic tasks like leading the horse were easier done from the left by a right-handed handler. So, given that reality, horses were calmer and more used to being handled from the left, so it also made sense to boost ladies up on the left side, and more decorous to allow them to keep their legs on the side where they were lifted. Montanabw^(talk) 02:18, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. You're very probably right. I hadn't realized women can't mount into sidesaddle without outside help. The observation that they can't should go into the article I think, with, if available, a photograph of a woman mounting (or more accurately being raised up) into sidesaddle.

Another bit of information you may consider adding to the article: whether sidesaddle competitions are only open to women or to both women and men. Whether men have ever actually attempted to take part or taken part is another question. Contact Basemetal here 06:30, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Look what I found: in the first picture Mary is riding sidesaddle on the right, contrary to common sense. In the second one she's riding on the left as she's supposed to but now it's Joseph who's leading the horse with his left hand. Contact Basemetal here 14:30, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

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Well, we CAN mount by ourselves sidesaddle, (I have) but there is a need for both a mounting block and a substantial loss of ladylike decorum (gotta hitch up that skirt and best to be wearing riding breeches underneath! =:-O ) in doing so! Occasionally, it had been asid that some horses were trained to get down on one knee to allow a lady to mount by herself, but can't say I've actually seen it done. You have some great ideas, the trick is finding sources. One is "Horsemanship for Women" published 1835, online here: https://archive.org/details/horsemanshipforw00mead you certainly could help point me to interesting stuff and maybe we could work on this together a bit. Montanabw^(talk) 01:14, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I'll be happy to. I'll do a bit of research. If all else fails maybe you can take a picture of yourself being raised into sidesaddle (photo 1: starting position, photo 2: the actual lift, photo 3: voila) and upload it to the Commons. You may wear a big cowboy hat and sunglasses for anonymity. I'm sure your horse would love to be in Wikipedia :) But first let me try and see what I can come up with. On another matter: Would you happen to know if there actually is a place called Stretchit in Gloucestershire? I've left a message on the talk page to that page but no answer so far. Why Gloucestershire? Because the real title of the cartoon is "An Enquiry after Stretchit in Gloucestershire or the Sailor's Reply" (version from the Royal Museum Greenwich, version from the British Museum). Of course they might have made up a name for a non-existent village only for the sake of the joke but then why place it in Gloucestershire? That's already three versions of the cartoon! And the Library of Congress has its own version but unfortunately they haven't digitized it yet so it's not clear if that would be a fourth version. That was English working-class humor in its 1805 variety. At a time when Jane Austen was crafting her exquisitely delicate works. Boggles the mind :) Contact Basemetal here 11:50, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

PS In "Horsemanship for Women" what we're looking for is at pp. 94-96. But I'll continue looking to see I there's more colorful and modern pictures around. Contact Basemetal here 12:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Watch this a man riding sidesaddle. But he's got an excuse: he's an archbishop. And he's riding a mule. It's an illustration of an episode in the novel (possibly even in the first original edition) Los cien mil hijos de san Luis: someone says "No podré olvidar nunca la figura del arzobispo, montando a mujeriegas en un mulo, apoyando una mano en el arzón delantero y otra en el de atrás, y con la canaleja sujeta con un pañuelo para que no se la arrancase el fuerte viento que soplaba. Es sensible que no pueda una dejar de reírse en circunstancias tristes y luctuosas, y que a veces las personas más dignas de veneración por su estado religioso, exciten la hilaridad. Conozco que es pecado y lo confieso; pero ello es que yo no podía tener la risa." If it's from 1877 it should no longer be under copyright, is it? Contact Basemetal here 15:01, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

LOL! I think I'll lift one of my youngest riding students! As for which side, remember that a lot of that religious art has Mary as a white girl too! Ping your question to User:Eric Corbett, he's in the UK and has a ton of TPSers who are also from the UK and up on historical stuff. Mention I sent you! Yes, men do occasionally ride sidesaddle, the problem is, of course, the obvious social disapproval. Riding sideways, though, is even more common - I think I have a "men" section in the article with some examples. BTW< page 100 of that book explains about why on the left. Montanabw^(talk) 20:50, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll let you know what else I find. Paintings were not meant as counterexamples but precisely as examples of artistic license. The principle at work seems to be: Mary and Jesus need to be in the foreground, then the donkey, then Joseph. Poor Joseph. If the donkey, for whatever reason needs to be made to walk from left to right we get the situation we have in the first painting, if from right to left the situation in the second painting. Contact Basemetal here 00:16, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

You raise an interesting point about sitting aside versus sidesaddle. Not sure how much we can source history prior to what's in the article, but clearly the need has existed since women started wearing long skirts. (heavy sigh) Montanabw^(talk) 02:45, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I remember reading somewhere that the ancient nomads would also on occasion ride aside, but I cannot remember where they found this. It would make sense that a traveling horseman, in the pre-stirrup age, would relax the strained muscle-attachments to his hips caused by the drag of his legs. Persian soldiers are also shown riding aside on their asses in Greek vase painting, British Museum, GR 1912.7-9.1, their feet resting on a planchette. This could be accurate, but it could also be to mock those "effeminate" Persians by showing them riding their asses like women. 87.212.52.128 (talk) 12:59, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Dubious source

Even though 1904, this advice is impossible to follow due to the design of the two-pommel saddle. The book is also flawed in "recommending" that women not ride astride. The author quite possibly had never ridden a horse! But putting here for future review. Montanabw^(talk) 07:56, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

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It was recommended to frequently change from one side to another, to prevent irregular development of thigh muscles, especially in girls who start riding in childhood.

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Why impossible? You have a right-handed saddle and a left-handed one. Switching off daily is mentioned in the Badminton Library of Sports volume Riding as a way to prevent any uneven development of the young body, which is an excuse for many worried mamas to prevent their daughters riding.

The whole section on the "two-pommel saddle" does read like a mess, because the terminology is the modern nonsense. In all pre-WWII sources, this is called a "three-horn saddle," because as the photo here very clearly shows three horns, the third being the leaping horn on the far left. Source: Montgomery Ward catalog, 1922, tack section. However did they decide to start calling horns pommels and cut the obvious number of them? Just part of the interregnum when sidesaddle almost disappeared? 141.239.177.153 (talk) 17:13, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

question

in the national museum of iceland is a wonderful ladies side saddle; a copyright picture is here https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-womens-side-saddle-used-in-the-18th-and-19th-centuries-in-iceland-75146413.html

question: what is the thing that sticks out (labeled "a' in the photo ) ? it looks like it goes over the rear of the horse — Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.157.58.170 (talk) 17:55, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

References

Ladies Western Side Saddle today

I was wondering why my example picture of the western ladies side saddle picture was removed? I would like to have it added back on if possible please! 71.38.55.15 (talk) 23:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Good references

This source discusses and places the role sidesaddle attire and bicycling attire had on feminism and the role in changing of women's clothing. It calls it "anti-fashion" and goes on to describe why. Quite fascinating. Probably should be used in Sidesaddle § Attire somehow. Available through Wikipedia Library / JSTOR.

• David, Alison Matthews (2002). "Elegant Amazons: Victorian Riding Habits and the Fashionable Horsewoman". Victorian Literature and Culture. 30 (1): 179–210. ISSN 1060-1503. JSTOR 25058581. Retrieved 2023-11-13.

This one also looks promising:

• Munkwitz, Erica (2022-04-27). "The Sidesaddle: The Unlikely Emblem of Equestrian Empowerment". The International Journal of the History of Sport. 39 (1): 57–71. doi:10.1080/09523367.2021.2013206. ISSN 0952-3367. Retrieved 2023-11-13.

  ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 10:44, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Interlanguage links

I tried to add the French article Amazone (équitation) but it gives some error related to Wikidata that I do not understand. If anyone knows how to manipulate these things, please add a link to the French article. Thanks.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 05:47, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Protection of the hymen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidesaddle#cite_note-truewest-2 is basically a bad "journalistic" article without any real (primary) sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidesaddle#cite_note-pethood-3 does provide a source that reflects the claim of protecting the hymen. The problem is that in the book, this is an unproven fabricated claim that does not truthfully reproduce the cited source. In "Childhood and Pethood in Literature and Culture" p. 156, "Lyrical beasts: Equine metaphors of race, class, and gender in contemporary Hollywood cinema" is cited: '"fears of ‘friction’ rendered even the most innocent activities suspect, [and it followed that] intimacy with such a large and beautiful animal was placed under the strictest surveillance” (42)'. If you look into the dissertation, this is just about masturbation. The rest, 'Thus, in order to preserve the female sex (quite literally, her hymen), the sidesaddle was introduced to eliminate the need for a woman to ride astride a horse, and, moreover, female riders were advised to ride no faster than a fast trot or a canter (Hofstetter 42–47)' is not true. This does not truthfully reproduce Hofstetter. 2003:EE:CF02:8C00:359E:BA67:D10:31B4 (talk) 22:20, 17 October 2024 (UTC)