Talk:Shosh, Nagorno-Karabakh

Control

Hi, @AntonSamuel:. You added a sentence saying that Russian peacekeeper map showed Shushakend as non-Azeri control, but that's not true. The latest map released by Russia puts the border at Shushakend and a post near it. This was confirmed by earlier videos released by Russians, which was geolocated and found that it was in the outskirts of Shushakend and not in the village itself. ANNA news has also confirmed Azeri control of Shushakend. Here's a map by one of the most reliable mappers in Twitter about this conflict, also confirming Azeri control over it. Cheers. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: Regarding the sources you provided:

• Russian military map: I cannot see that Shosh is under Azeri control per the map.
• azyakancokkacan Twitter geolocation According to the geolocation [1] - this refers to the checkpoint south of Stepanakert seen on the Russian military map as far as I can see, not the one near Shosh.
• Second Twitter source: This is a description of the claims of Azerbaijan, not confirmation of it as far as I understand the map.

AntonSamuel (talk) 20:07, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@AntonSamuel:

The Russian map is barely detailed and it has quite a few mistakes (e.g. they showed posts in Agdam in their first map, but later removed it). So, I wouldn't use that for anything as it's also a WP:PRIMARY source.

You might be right, but it's still not in the village; see the point below.

No, the mapper doesn't mark the areas unless it's confirmed. I think I linked the wrong tweet, sorry. Here he is marking the Russian posts and also showing the AZ control. As you can see the Russian post and Shushakend are quite close to each other. He also answers a question about control of Shushakend, citing the Anna news report and WarGonzo.

Cheers. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:20, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: Can you provide direct sources from ANNA and WarGonzo that the Twitter user mentioned about Shosh being under Azeri control? I've browsed a bit through the sites and can't find much. However, I don't speak Russian so it's a bit harder. AntonSamuel (talk) 20:26, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@AntonSamuel: The mapper didn't clarify which video/statement its from either. I'll ask him and then write here when he replies.— CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:31, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@AntonSamuel: Hi again. The mapper responded here. Looks like he geo-located WarGonzo videos to find it. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 04:36, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: Ok then, so from that data:

The Russian military post close to Shosh is here according to Krummapper: [2]

The Russian military map [3] shows the area south of the outpost to be under Artsakh control, with a "bulge" towards Shushi? From those sources that should imply that Shosh is under Armenian control?

I found this footage [4] from a pro-Armenian Facebook page

Liveuamap: [5] reposted Armenian Hetq's picture from Shosh towards Shushi today: [6]

AntonSamuel (talk) 18:25, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

@AntonSamuel: The image was geo-located and it could very well be outside of the village of Shushakend. I suggest having both provinces and Artsakh in infobox for now, but with a "Disputed:" tag until the fog of war is gone. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 18:46, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: Sounds reasonable to me to keep the status listed as "disputed" until reliable and neutral third-party sources can be found reporting on the status of the village. AntonSamuel (talk) 18:51, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Another Armenian news source (Aysor) stating that five Armenian families displaced from Vazgenashen (Gülablı) settled in Shosh and Ivanyan (Khojaly). [7] AntonSamuel (talk) 19:39, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Not a WP:RS. We still need to wait until things are clearer. None of the villages AZ announced has turned out to be false, AZ's claims are more reliable in this case and we need more definite proof of Armenians still having control over it. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:44, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Neither Azerbaijani or Armenian sources may fulfill neutrality with regard to the conflict, ceasefire or related matters, but Armenian news sources should be seen as at least on equal ground with Azerbaijani sources, and that's not taking into account the Press Freedom Index score the two countries have, where Armenia scored no. 61 and Azerbaijan scored no. 168 in 2020. AntonSamuel (talk) 19:56, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Press Freedom doesn't really warrant a truthful report as was evident with this war when almost every single announcement/claim Armenian MoD made turned out to be false (this was later admitted by Movses Hakobyan). — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:02, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

The Armenian administration may have withheld many details and claimed fighting was ongoing in parts that were largely overrun to keep morale from falling and avoid panic among troops, however I have seen plenty of maps and reports from the Azerbaijani government and Azerbaijani media exaggerating claims of areas captured, such as around Martakert and Martuni for example that turned out to be false. AntonSamuel (talk) 20:07, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Official report is one thing, media interpretation is another. The Azerbaijani government turned out to be much more truthful during the whole war compared to Armenian. So, comparing press freedom doesn't always warrant who is telling the truth or not. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:10, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

The Armenian government published a list of villages captured/handed over to Azerbaijan: [8], Shosh/Shushakend is not included. AntonSamuel (talk) 18:35, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Interesting. Should be treated as WP:PRIMARY though. Also, it doesn't include quite a few villages that have been confirmed to be under Azeri control like Muxtar. It also includes villages that AZ never captured during the war. Like Armenakavan in the Agdam District and Vazgenashen. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 18:46, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Muxtar/Mkhitarishen is pretty small (91 inhabitants) so I think that may be the reason. Because of its relatively large size, Shosh would probably be included if it was captured. And yes, the list also includes villages that were handed over like Kalbajar. Together with the Russian map I think it's safe to say that it is highly likely Shosh is under Artsakh control. However, the disputed tag can remain if you would prefer a third-party source. AntonSamuel (talk) 18:51, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I think it'd be most appropriate to keep the Disputed tag until there's a third-party confirmation of Shushakend not being under AZ control. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 18:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

On a closer look - as far as I can see from the Muxtar wiki page - that the village has been captured is based on the statement made by Aliyev, has it been confirmed by third-party sources? Otherwise, Muxtar may very well still be under Artsakh control as well. AntonSamuel (talk) 19:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Almost all the twitter mapper/geolocators I've seen have put Muxtar as under AZ control. Also the fact that Russian peacekeeper map also shows it under AZ control (they put posts on LoC and if it they have post near Shushakend, it means Muxtar is definitely under AZ control as you can't get to Shushakend without passing Muxtar). — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:03, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Azerbaijani media has now reported that Shosh is under Armenian control: [9] [10] [11] AntonSamuel (talk) 14:17, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Those are some very weird and unpopular Azerbaijani sites and all three of the articles are commenting about the update in Russian peacekeeper map that shows Shushakend under Russian control and none of them are independently confirming that it actually is. We'll probably know who controls it in the coming days. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:21, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

All right, I'll take your word for it - I'm not that familiar with Azerbaijani media. Though I would say it's fairly likely from the reports presented so far that the village is under Artsakh control. AntonSamuel (talk) 14:24, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree that currently, it seems to be under Russian peacekeeper control, but I'll suggest waiting for more hard proof like we did on Köhnə Tağlar. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:31, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Canadian journalist Neil Hauer [12][13] reported on December 13 from Shosh: [14] An Armenian newspaper has mentioned the village regarding schools within the new de facto borders of Artsakh not being repaired yet. [15]. Some Armenian news outlets reporting on Shosh being under Artsakh/Russian control: [16] [17] [18] [19], referencing the Russian MoD map. AntonSamuel (talk) 16:57, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

AntonSamuel, Neil is an Armenia-based journalist. Regard all of the sources you've mentioned above as Armenian sources. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 17:09, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't believe that a well-respected journalist loses all credibility for being Armenia-based. And yes, those are Armenian news outlets as I mentioned, I previously posted a few Azerbaijani sources - which apparently were a bit obscure though. Better sources are of course possible to obtain - but Artsakh control looks more and more likely. AntonSamuel (talk) 17:23, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Solavirum that Neil Hauer is not an unbiased and credible journalist as it's obvious from his Twitter page, where he blocks every single Azerbaijani user and claims war crimes while refusing to provide proof for what he's claiming. Here's one instance where he claims that he saw a warcrime, then refuses to provide proof when asked and when gets his claim debunked, blocks the debunker. Clearly not a proper journalist. On the other hand, I do agree with Anton that current facts on the ground support the claim that the village is under Russian control, though I still believe we need to wait until things are clearer to make an edit. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 17:35, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm not going to browse his entire activity with others on Twitter, but even if it could be said that he has a pro-Armenia bias - purposefully spreading disinformation would be a serious charge for a journalist - if a journalist with such a broad expertise, standing and experience in well regarded international news sources and organizations [20][21][22] states that he posts a photo from a specific village and that the village is under Artsakh control, I for one am willing to take his word for it. AntonSamuel (talk) 17:44, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I already provided just one example of him spreading disinformation. And none of the 3 sources you've cited are really WP:RS and well-known other than maybe ForeignPolicy. Still a wonder how he's still there. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 17:48, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

The twitter reports you've linked are a bit hard to follow since there is so much rambling conversation between the users and removed posts that are linked - but talking about reliable sources - from a cursory view, this: [23][24] does not seem like a very reliable source based on the language used and the fast conclusions he draws - it's also hard to find any background information about who runs the channel as well. AntonSamuel (talk) 18:00, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

I never claimed that that channel was unbiased nor should be cited in the article. They don't even claim to be a journalist, they just report whatever they gather from Telegram channels. Though, what I cited above is them debunking Neil's fake war crimes claim (he saw pictures of dead women from northern Iraq, assumed they were Armenians from Karabakh and immediately made a Twitter post talking about how "horrible" Azerbaijanis are. He refused to reply or provide proof when his claims were debunked). Neil is definitely not a credible source that can be cited for anything. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 18:15, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Seems like a weird incident - but I'm not going to dive into any Twitter conflict, apart from them being exhausting to go through - Twitter conversations in general are hotbeds for disinformation. I do believe that WP:SELFPUBLISH would allow for the use of a report from Neil Hauer on this subject as "self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.": [25] If there is doubt about his reliability, at the very least, a better source presenting those doubts would be needed to reasonably argue that. AntonSamuel (talk) 18:36, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

See our talk about Reza Deghati on the main article's talk page. Neil isn't neutral. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 06:28, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

My view of Russian map, some people claimed it to be not very detailed and with mistakes. I think it could be this way: the russian map showes lands unders the responsibility of russian troops. For example, for some time Agdam might have been under their watch because they were watching the armenian forces move out. Same goes for Kohne Taglar incident, armenians remained there, then russians came and escorted them out of the area, so for a day or two it was under russians watch, after that it was handed back. Don't know if other "mistakes" exist, but these ones can be explained like this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.135.144.173 (talk) 16:24, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Armenian/Russian control of the village is clear from recent reports, see here: [26] AntonSamuel (talk) 17:08, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I mean that it's also present on russian map as under russian responsibility. What I want to say is that russian map is reliable, and not "mistaken" as some have claimed. Those "mistakes" about Agdam and Kohne Taglar I explained, how to understand those. I am not aware of other "mistakes" so far. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.135.144.173 (talk) 17:57, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 21 December 2020

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved to Shushikend. This is a complex discussion, which has unfolded over the last five weeks. There is a consensus that the article should be moved away from its current title, with some "oppose" votes nonetheless supporting a change (though not to the proposed target), and some "support" votes specifying a new name other than the proposed target. There appears to be more support for "Shushikend" or some variation of that than there is for "Shosh", and specifically argument against the viability of "Shosh" as a title. BD2412 T 06:02, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Şuşakənd → Shosh, Nagorno-Karabakh – Move to "Shosh, Nagorno-Karabakh" per WP:AT/WP:COMMONNAME:

Results from Google: Shosh: 20,700 Şuşakənd: 6,660 Shushakend: 8,450

Results from Google Scholar: Shosh: 11 Şuşakənd: 0 Shushakend: 1

Regarding the ", Nagorno-Karabakh" disambiguation tag: "Nagorno-Karabakh" is a well established and the accepted term for the region and used by the majority of UN states when referring to the region. Using the common name for a geographic region, or an autonomous region, as well as when it's in dispute, as a disambiguation tag is standard on Wikipedia - a couple of examples: Copceac, Gagauzia, Gaidar, Gagauzia, Tomai, Gagauzia, Ocnița, Transnistria, Rotari, Transnistria, Mitrovica, Kosovo, Kamenica, Kosovo. This formulation was also favored on a past relevant move discussion for the town of Martuni in Nagorno-Karabakh (Khojavend → Martuni, Nagorno-Karabakh).
AntonSamuel (talk) 09:19, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Update: Reliable sources (WP:RS/WP:RSP) utilizing "Shosh" as the name for the village: Financial Times/AP Forbes Reuters 1 Reuters 2 AntonSamuel (talk) 13:01, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Clarification: Utilizing search results from Google should be done with caution, but is acceptable per WP:NCGN:

Regarding multiple local names: "Simple Google tests are acceptable to settle the matter, despite their problems; one solution is to follow English usage where it can be determined, and to adopt the name used by the linguistic majority where English usage is indecisive."

As this matter concerns a larger issue that is a matter of contention - an RfC for a naming convention for Nagorno-Karabakh may be needed if consensus cannot be achieved, as has been suggested before, however I hope the admin that closes this discussion will look carefully at all the arguments that have been made and take WP:VOTE into consideration.

AntonSamuel (talk) 14:28, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

— Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Carthago814 (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. (diffs: [27], [28], [29], [30])

Oppose and move to Shushikend. "Shushikend" is the WP:COMMONNAME for this village and it was the name used in Soviet times before it was renamed by the self-proclaimed Artsakh government, which makes it more WP:NPOV. Considering the fact that most of the sources for Shosh in Google scholar are the same sentence copy-pasted in different books by Armenian authors, the actual number gets down to 8, while the results for Shushikend is at 11. Even the Russian officials refer to the village as Shushikend to remain WP:NPOV. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 09:40, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Laurel Lodged (talk) 09:44, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

• Support Shushikend per WP:COMMONNAME. Stick to the rules mate. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 10:38, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Dear Mate, I too believe in sticking to the rules, hence I favour the evidence as presented which is overwhelmingly in favour of the nominated name. Do you have other evidence Mate? Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:20, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Your sarcastic approach is extremely unproductive. As Curious said, we have guidelines, and changing a common name just by preference of an ethnic group is against the rules. As Wikipedia is not a democracy, you have to prove a valid point rather than just write yay or nay. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 11:38, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Just by preference "of an ethnic group"? Where did you get that idea? I thought that I made it clear that my vote was based on the evidence as adduced by the nominator. Please assume good faith and withdraw the baseless accusation. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:59, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

The evidence is not enough to bypass a solid guideline. And thus, in any conclusion, you either have not understood the guidelines thoroughly, or act biased in such regard. This isn't an accusation, I can't find any reason beyond that. Do you want to state that this evidence is a basis to violate well-established guidelines? --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 16:12, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

@Solavirum: You implied above that my "move" vote was "just by preference of an ethnic group". That is, you implied that my vote was not rules based or evidence bases but ethnically based. This is untrue. If this was not your intention, then please be good enough to correct the record. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:49, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose Şuşakənd name was gived by Azerbaijani Government. We can also change to Shushikend. Because they are same meaning. EljanM (TALK) 17:12, 21 December 2020

• Comment about update: Reuters article you linked doesn't use "Shosh", Forbes article doesn't use it either, it's mentioned in an image caption, which is chosen by photographers, not Forbes and checking FT one is impossible due to paywall. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:27, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

The Reuters article uses it in the caption of one of the pictures in the slideshow. I've added another Reuters source now as well where it's clearer. AntonSamuel (talk) 13:37, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

As I said about Forbes one, captions of images aren't part of the article and aren't written by the WP:RS itself, but by photographers. So, no, they don't count. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:44, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

What are you basing that assessment on? I can't find anything backing up your claim that image captions on articles can't be referred to on WP:RS or WP:CS. The image was also taken by a Reuters photographer. AntonSamuel (talk) 13:50, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Sounds like CuriousGolden is inventing rules to suit his case. Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:51, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per Çaylaqqala and others. Too little-known of a locality to claim an established common name in English. Gazeteer directories list it as Şuşikənd and give Şuşakənd and Shosh as alternative names; perhaps Şuşikənd is what the article should be renamed to. Parishan (talk) 06:16, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 19:03, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose Its de-jure in Azerbaijan must have an Azerbaijani name for it. (Carthago814 (talk) 19:28, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.135.144.173 (talk) 15:58, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
• Support - as always I support the name of the group that was the ethnic majority before the conflict began in 1988. In this case it was Armenian, and remains Armenian, and all of the locals call it Shosh, which the article name should reflect. --RaffiKojian (talk) 11:31, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move?

@AntonSamuel:, should this village be moved to Shosh? Per the current naming format that we are applying to Artsakhi villages still under control of Artsakh, for the sake of uniformity. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 09:13, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Move back

@AntonSamuel:, kindly please, should this village be moved to Şuşakənd/Shushakend? This village and all Karabakh region currently is under control of Azerbaijan now. Please use the sovereign and official names of places. My greetings. - Cuman 18:13, 21 December 2023 (UTC)