Talk:Shibboleth/Archive 1

Archive 1

Modern Usage

Maybe a link to Parsley massacre could be made? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Soletti (talk • contribs) 22:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Being a Torontonian myself, I can vehemently disconfirm any notion that "aboot" is a Torontonian pronunciation of "about". It might more accurately describe a maritime variant of pronunciation, but I can't really be specific. So, not Torontonian ->edit

RE English place names/pronounciation. The canonical example (missing from this page) seems to be Worcester or Worcestershire, pronounced 'Wuster' (sometimes 'Wooster'). The typical dialogue is, tourist "Hi, do you know the way to war-cester?", English person "Sorry mate, never heard of it". Possibly followed by "Oh! Wuster!"

"Biblical" is a bit vague. What language was it originally from?

Hebrew, but not knowing Hebrew, I have no idea whether it's part of modern Hebrew. For the moment I just changed "Biblical" to "Hebrew". Hopefully someone with more knowledge will clarify. -- nknight 10:02, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Wanda Jane? That sounds made up. Though I have heard of "lollipop". Really there would be a lot of words Japanese people can't pronounce without a lot of practice.

---

This also makes no reference to the software package of the same name. See: Shibboleth

Beaulieu

An anonymous contributor added "...errr, BEW lea, surely?" after:

Beaulieu (bowl YEW)

I offer no opinions about the pronunciation -- I'm just moving the question here to the talk page. Saucepan 15:10, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

the external link is dead....

Japanese

I thought that the Japanese don't have an r sound? For example, "sakura" is pronounced "sak-u-la". KC the MoUsY spell-checker

The "Japanese R" is a retroflex tap sound, which not found in any European language, I think. It's not an "English R" (alveolar approximant), nor "rolled R" (alveolar trill), nor a "D" (voiced alveolar stop) or a "L" (alveolar lateral), even if various people hear the "Japanese R" as one of these. --Vuo 11:38, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is in fact an ordinary tap, the same as Spanish r (not rr) in all positions except at the beginning of a word. It is also used in Italian between vowels. --John Cowan 22:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Baseball shibboleths?

I heard something about using Babe Ruth's home run record as a passcode in WW2, presumably because only American soldiers would know the correct count of 714. I don't have any sources for this (word of mouth from my father); can anyone confirm or deny this? Firebird365 03:31, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You're talking about a code, not a shibboleth. I've seen similar ideas at work in various WW2 movies, where people suspected of being spies will be asked to answer questions such as "What is a 'Texas leaguer'?" on the assumption that most Germans, despite having a great English accent, wouldn't have the requisite everyday life-experience that would allow most real Americans to easily supply a correct answer. Conversely, if someone could tell you all about pop culture but couldn't pronounce a particular word in your language, you'd have yourself a shibboleth. Buck Mulligan 20:18, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

No, by the broad definition "714" could be called "shibboleth". Magmagoblin (talk) 23:49, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Operation Overlord

Removed:

Also in World War II, on Operation Overlord, the Allies used a password/counter-password/response code that went "Thunder/Lightning/Welcome", so that a German soldier wouldn't get the last one right (he would say it as "vellcomm").

This is an urban legend based on mistaken recollections. The actual call/response were "Flash"-"Thunder". Policy: Wikipedia:Check your facts Mikkalai 01:31, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

About: Distinguishes Canadians

I consider this to be somewhat of a fallacy, as well as a hackneyed dig against Canadian pronunciation. Additionally, being based upon point of view, it is a poor choice for an example of a shibboleth. Has "about" been used, in a historical context, to separate Canadians from Americans? If not, why not call any difference between English, Canadian, and American pronunciations of the English language a shibboleth?

As a Canadian who has lived in the southern U.S., I actually have experience being told that I pronounce the word about as "a boot". But to my ear, I certainly do not. In fact, I find my pronunciation to be very close to Merriam-Webster.com's, rhyming with the interjection "ow".

I don't doubt that there are pronunciations that are distinctly Canadian (and in some cases, generally north-eastern). Some examples are sorry (as in "or") vs. U.S. "sarry" and pasta (as in "ass") vs. U.S. "posta". But you wouldn't make these examples of shibboleth, would you?

I hereby petition for this entry's removal, though don't wish to do it myself lest someone disagrees with me. Thank you for your time.

I agree that that item needs to be rewritten, but I think it should stay in the article, because it's a hackneyed stereotype. 90% of being a shibboleth is people thinking of a word as a shibboleth. That people have teased you specifically for that, and not for your pronunciation of any of a hundred other words that differ between standard Canadian pronunciation and standard Southern US pronunciation is what makes it a good candidate for the list of shibboleths. No, "uh bowt" versus "a boot" hasn't been used as a literal shibboleth to separate out Americans and Canadians in any sort of official context, but it has been mocked pretty thoroughly by comedians looking for cheap laughs. That's why I think we should keep "about" but rewrite the text. --Carl 11:18, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think the difference is between American "a bout" vs. Canadian "a bowt", which emphasizes the /w/ and shortens the "a"-vowel in the diphthong. (sorry, I'm not going to take the time to find the unicode character for //\/...(the uh)). If it were up to a vote, I would actually vote for its deletion, on the grounds that it is not a shibboleth, it's a hackneyed stereotype and nothing more. It has entered most people's consciousness only because of South Park (Blame Canada!)...and like so much of Trey Parker's work, it is not Encyclopedia material. This pronunciation is a marker of the "Toronto Valley accent", not of general Canadian usage. It is much less prevalent or pronounced in the maritime and great plains provinces. TShilo12 07:19, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It appears that User:Grstain removed "about" without putting a notice on this page. I won't put it back, since I agree that it should be rewritten, but I think it's at least as deserve an entry as zee v. zed. --Carl 02:28, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I lived in Detroit for a good decade and the Ontarians I knew said "a boat," i.e., a marine vessel, rather than "a boot," i.e. footwear. Were my ears full of cotton that whole time or is the "aboot" spelling truly a dismal failure at recording the actual pronunciation? Jerry Kindall 06:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

There's no cotton in your ears, Jerry. Speaking as a Canadian who's lived in Montreal, Ottawa, and Northern Virginia, and traveled extensively around this continent by car--basically covering everything between Halifax and San Diego, Miami and Edmonton--I can say with near-certainty that no Canadian anyplace says "ah-boot", except occasionally for the ersatz Canadians on American TV shows. The trouble is that Canadians don't all pronounce the word the same way. And that makes sense, considering how gigantic the country is (Montrealers and Haligonians don't sound any more alike for being Canadian than New Yorkers and folks from Maine sound alike for being Americans). The "ah-BOOT" thing seems to be an attempt to record in writing something that actually sounds more like "ah-BEWt" in much of Eastern Canada (you might be able to recreate the sound by saying "about" the way you normally would as an American, but instead of dropping your chin to open your mouth, pull back your lips and grin slightly while you say it). For some reason, though, in Windsor and the surrounding area (i.e., close to Detroit), this is not the case; this is an area of Ontario where many people do indeed pronounce the word as something very close to "ah-BOAT".

And as for deleting the entry: Why should we do that? It's certainly not a "hackneyed stereotype"; a hackneyed stereotype about Canadians would be something along the lines of how cloyingly polite we all supposedly are, or something equally stupid. Leaving the page as-is might be confusing to some people, since as I said the word's pronounciation depends on what region of the country you're in, but there doesn't seem to be anything to do about this besides maybe setting up an extra page devoted to various Canadian pronounciations of a rather uninteresting word ... and even for the Wikipedia that seems a bit excessive, no? How 'bout we put it like this: If you meet someone who says "ah-bewt" or "ah-boat" instead of "ah-bawt", then you can be pretty sure he's from someplace in Canada. And that, people, is a shibboleth. Buck 04:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

This does exist and is called Canadian raising; in most parts of Canada "about" is pronounced ʌbəʊt instead of ʌbaʊt. This is becoming less common among younger speakers however. --Chlämens 21:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to recategorize shibboleths

"Some Shibboleths" is a very vague category. Most of the shibboleths there haven't been used to seriously persecute people, and thus belong under "fictional/humorous shibboleths." However, I propose we further divide the page up into "War related shibboleths," "Regional stereotypes," "Humorous shibboleths," and "Shibboleths in fiction". Is anyone opposed to this? --Carl 16:22, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

not I. Tomer ^TALK 17:11, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

Californian "Orange"

The page discusses using the word "orange" as a shibboleth for distinguishisg native Californians. It says the native pronunciation is [ˈɔɹɪndʒ] (or [ˈɔɹəndʒ]). But what about the cot-caught merger -- I don't believe I have /ɔ/, only /ɑ/ (with which /ɔ/ has merged for me) and /o/. I believe my own (native Californian) pronunciation of "orange" is [ˈoɹɪndʒ]. Perhaps the [o] is not a perfectly cardinal /o/, but it's much closer to /o/ than to /ɔ/.

On the other hand, I've already said I don't have /ɔ/ myself. Perhaps this is more a difficulty of accurately hearing sounds that are only allophones in my own dialect?

-- Arthaey 23:34, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Could this section add the "plain english" pronunciations in addition to the IPA? It's one of the only sections of the article that lacks this, and I can't read IPA. Do Californians say "aurange", "o-ringe", or what? --132.177.122.132 20:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

That would depend. I was born and raised in the S.F. bay area and apparntly have and for the most part an extremely typical accent. I pronounce "orange" as ORR-inge, though, I think because my dad is from Queens and he pronounces is "AH-renge" or so. The way that I think the "Californian Orange" is pronounced, though, is "Ornge". One syllable. Kind of like how "crayon" turns into "cran". ````Morningwindow

Just to add a datum: I was born and raised in SF (city) and say ORnge. Mother grew up in Palo Alto/SF. Father grew up Chicago and the Bronx. Eperotao (talk) 00:37, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

"Appalachian"

This is an obvious regional shibboleth: could someone possibly transliterate the two pronunciations to IPA?

-- Holgate 10:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Literal Meaning

Well, both dictionary.com and encyclopedia encarta dictionary listed Shibboleth as meaning "torrent of water" and "stream" respectively, not "ear of wheat". So... edited.

English shibboleths for non-native speakers

Just out of curiosity, what are the sources for these? (intriguing) Thanks --Dpr 08:35, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I suspect they were just added by people at random, and they've been retained because they ring true. In a way, they're not so much 'shibboleths' as 'things that might be hard to say'. -Carl 12:18, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Collective Nouns

Might some collective nouns be considered a shibboleth (looking at this from an english speaker's view). ?

I've heard that the upper crust invented collective nouns as a way to spot those trying to elbow their way into higher society. For instance, during a hunting party, if one of the participants said "hey, look at that bunch of crows", everyone else in that party will have been alearted to the presence of an imposter, since the correct phrase would be "murder of crows".

I wouldn't want to add this unless others thought that this is a reasonable example of a shibboleth.

(Yeah, I know, "Be Bold". It ain't always easy).Bunthorne 20:24, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Fascinating idea...please pursue if you have material! --Dpr 15:49, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

English shibboleths for non-native speakers

Where did we get these? --Dpr 15:49, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

They look a bit dubious to me. I realy doubt anybody has ever used the word Vespene gas to determine whether someone was an Arab. And I don't see the difference between Ripley/ripply, either. --BadSeed 06:59, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
I do. Many people pronounce them distinctly, and many others don't. There are many words which are commonly but subtly mis-pronounced, usually dipthongs as a schwa. It might have to do with how you learned to speak, based on how carefully those around you spoke as your speech engrams formed. My little sister (15 years younger) was raised in the same family, but a different community, and without as much attention as we elder sibs received from our very literate and articulate parents and their friends. I have ungraciously chagrinned her for her 'careless' pronunciation, but realize the unjustified unfortunately common consequence of being dismissed because of this kind of 'simplified' or minor mis-pronunciation.
It does, however, demonstrate the meaning of 'shibboleth' as a password, or 'secret handshake' in gaining access or acceptance, sometimes without either party being concious of the transaction.
--Boldklub-PJs (talk) 18:26, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Nucular

Considered to be a "humorous shibboleth", has an entire article devoted to it Nucular, maybe should be mentioned here.

done. --Carl 07:46, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Shibboleth = Stream?

I know this has already been brought up, but it hasn't really been discussed much (as far as I can tell). Why is the meaning said to be Torrent of water, or stream? I know this is one of the meanings, but it's extremely obscure, and there is no evidence that this meaning, and not the other (stalk of grain), was used in the Bible. In fact, the only Hebrew source right now where I can find the 'torrent of water' meaning clearly defined is the Even Shoshan dictionary, which contains thousands of words no longer in use. If anyone here is sure that the 'torrent of water' meaning was more common in the past, then please say 'Ancient Hebrew word', not Hebrew word. -- Ynhockey 08:17, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Also wanted to mention that probably the best free online Hebrew-English dictionary, which is Morfix, does not contain the 'stream' meaning. You can check by typing in: שיבולת -- Ynhockey 08:18, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm with Ynhockey. This should be corrected. I'll try to see if I can correct it acurately enough myself. Whaa? 17:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I also found the meaning torrent of water surprising, but the Even Shoshan dictionary states that the orgin of the word shibboleth in the torrent of water meaning might came from shvil (path) or as an expansion of the original word, because a torrent branches out or looks like a shibboleth. So, it is a valid word, even though it's very rare to encounter the word in this meaning today (actually, this is the first time I encounter this meaning, Whoopee! new word). The dictionary gives a nice phrase using the two meanings: "A drowner in a shibboleth grabs to a shibboleth" (In Hebrew it sounds nicer because it is a short four word phrase). The phrase's explanation is: Someone who's in trouble doesn't check his rescue way and will even grab to the weakest measures. I wrote all this text just to say that I'll switch the order of the meanings of the word that appear in the article now. --Max out 10:35, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

As an American Orthodox Jew, my first thought was a Biblical verse, Isaiah 27:12, "והיה ביום ההוא יחבט יהוה משבלת הנהר עד-נחל מצרים ואתם תלקטו לאחד אחד בני ישראל" (obviously referring to a torrent, not grain). After some Googling, I came up with another familiar phrase, "שבלת נרד", referring to the other meaning . . . but that was Mishnaic. I suspect that's not a coincidence. Since both the American Heritage Dictionary and Merriam-Webster give "stream" or "torrent" as the correct translation, I'm changing it back, with references. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Victorian Grammatical Shibboleth

65.37.83.44 left the following comment in the article itself, refering to Victorian grammatical shibboleths:

[Request: Please give examples of gerunds as pronounced by the upper, middle and lower classes for those of us who need them to understand what you mean. Thanks!].

Mcpusc 05:58, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

From the article:

• use of the apostrophe for standard, non-possessive plural (e.g. Hotdog's for sale)
• confusion of it's (verb contraction, "it is") and its (possessive for it)

Surely these are just example's of common grammatical error's, rather than shibboleth's... Can someone verify or provide citations? Alf_Boggis 11:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Those forms are commonly frowned upon by others. What's more, people who commonly use such forms may look uneducated or unrefined to the people who do the frowning, who think of themselves as educated and refined. I think that's a sort of social shibboleth as well. --KJ 16:06, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Is that just your opinion, or can you cite sources? Surely by your argument, any grammatical error would qualify as a Shibboleth, since there will inevitably be those who frown upon bad grammar. Alf_Boggis 13:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

It's my opinion that anything that can cause an "us vs. them" attitude can become a shibboleth. I think the opening paragraph of the article supports that. --KJ 07:58, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I think this is taking the term shibboleth way beyond the intention. It was not intended to mean grammatical errors and general bad spelling. They can exist within many groups who can correctly get past a "shibboleth" test. i.e a Dane who says "Rødgrød med fløde" correctly but spells Danish incorrectly.Chrisleigh 17:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

'Between You and I' Shibboleth

I don't really understand the inclusion of this as a Victorian Grammatical Shibboleth. It is not clear if the article means that the shibboleth was to incorrectly say '[subject] between you and I' despite correct grammer being '[subject] between you and me.' Since the line goes on to say that 'people sometimes' hypercorrect to pronounce "between you and I." --70.145.102.253 07:03, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Dalziels...

"Dalziel and de'il begin with the ane letter. De'il is nae gude, and Dalziel is nae better

This means " 'Dalziel' and 'devil' begin with the one letter. The Devil is no good, and Dalziel is no better". "Dalziel" is referring to the Scottish clan of that name, and the phrase is intended as a slight against that clan."

Isn't the point here that 'Dalziel' is correctly pronounced 'Dee-yell' which is rather similar to 'Dee'il'?

(Glaswegian)

Right. I think we'll need an example of how Dalziel is pronounced by people who are unfamiliar with the name. --KJ 08:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Dalzeel [dæl.ziːl], or sommat like that. -- Boothman 11:38, 1 May 2006 (UTC).

Organization of States

Could someone separate the U.S. examples into specific states and organize them? It's horrible having to browse through all that without a division in sight. Either alphabetical listing or east-to-west (west-to-east? north-to-south?) would be nice.

I wonder about Puyallup there. I'm from very close to it, and pronounce it with the 'ae' of cat. But I think I've heard it both ways, and the double-L spelling would seem to support the 'ah' sound (gal/gall, pal/pall, Tal/tall, etc.). Kilyle 07:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Portuguese Pão (bread)

The following statement befuddles me:

"Non-Brazilian Portuguese speakers - and even native speakers from Portugal - have great difficulty making the ão sound - instead, they would say pan or pao (without the tilde sound)."

On the one hand, since "pão" is the main staple of Portuguese food and the centerpiece of any Portuguese table, the concept that the portuguese are unable to pronounce a fundamental word in their own language is _strange_, at best.

No Portuguese speaker (whether from Portugal or from Portuguese-speaking countries, and excluding occasional, rare and very specific local accents) would pronounce it as "pan" or "pao". Moreover, the way I've pronounced "pão" since I first learned to speak, and the way my Brazilian acquaintances pronounce it, are virtually indistinguishable to people without an ear for accents.

On the other hand, the expression "non-Brazilian Portuguese speakers" leaves room for misinterpretation. Does it refer to:

1. Non-[Brazilian Portuguese]-Speakers: people who don't speak Portuguese with a Brazilian accent. (As I think it does.)

2. Non-Brazilian, Portuguese-Speakers: people who speak Portuguese, but are not Brazilians. (Which makes no sense, if you want to suss out Paraguayans.)

I realize it's a minor detail in the greater scheme of things, but in an Encyclopedia there shouldn't be room for misinterpretation or doubt about the meaning of a sentence.83.132.98.175 02:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

(Same user as above) The above assertions are no longer relevant, as the main article has now been corrected by another user. 83.132.98.149 00:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Social Shibboleths

Could this article address the notion of "Sicial Shibboleths"? They aren't necessarily words but actions that give away the fact that someone doesn't have the class or experience they claim. Examples are to numerous to mention but many involve poor table manners or solecisms in speaking. --Saxophobia 10:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Original research?

I've added the {{Unsourced}} tag to this page because as far as I can tell, there are no cited sources here, just personal accounts of pronunciation differences, which amounts to very unscientific original research. Please add references and show the pronunciation differences as relevant as well. AEuSoes1 00:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Shibboleths of the culture war--extending the metaphor

The narrow definition of Shibboleth would be something like: "A behaviour, originally verbal articulation, the inability to properly execute betraying non membership in a group." This article extends the metaphor to characteristic expressions, not inability, that betray one's group identity.

I took the liberty of adding a catagory "Shiboleths of the culture war" that is perhaps a further extention of the original biblical reference, since it is willful behavior, not inability, that makes the distinction. I think it has value, and I attempted to define the limit of its use in the article. I welcome comments—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arodb (talk • contribs) 14:14, August 16, 2006.

I don't like it. But it could just need better wording. And sourcing. AEuSoes1 01:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

lollapalooza source

The source in question is "How to spot a Jap" and the information taken from this source is in the form of a humorous comic strip...credible? I doubt it because I found it hard to find any other source with this information on it....any thoughts or comments on this? I deleted the source and added a citation needed tag. Wikipediarules2221 04:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It can't be credible. An American double agent would be able to pronounce it. A Japanese native spy would look Japanese, so why would you need this word?

Jews and Sugar Lumps

"During World War II the Nazis made a test to root out unidentified Jews who were amongst them by serving tea to a group of people, and placing sugar cubes on the table. The Jews would place the sugar cube in their mouths, while the ethnic Germans would place the cube into the tea. This is an example of a shibboleth through action."

This should be ammended as it is written in a way which suggest this would actually help you distinguish Jews from Gentiles in 1940s Germany. It's extremely unlikely to have worked - if it happened at all (there are no sources cited). Most German Jews were very assimilated and would have known how to 'take tea'.

added: This is also how many ethnic Russians and others take tea. It might help distinguish someone as being "not from around here," but wouldn't pin them down further.

Cyrillization exercise for the condemned Russians

I keep removing this text:

The leading /h/ is particularly hard for Russian speakers since Russian does not have a voiceless glottal fricative; standard cyrillization transcribes loanwords with H into Г, which in standard Russian is /g/ and in southern dialects is /ɦ/.

Standard cyrillization is totally irrelevant. The context is this: Russians were asked to say [höyryjyrä]. They said something else, beginning the word with nothing, /g/, /ɦ/ or /x/, but not /h/, and failing this test, were then shot on the spot. They weren't given a pen and paper to cyrillize the word. --Vuo 12:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC) --Vuo 12:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's completely irrelevant, but I can see how it might be misleading. However, I don't see those, especially /g/ as "analagous" to /h/ (/ɦ/ is an exception). Does this even have a source? Ƶ§œš¹ ^{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 20:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

This article

I'm sure this is a very learned article, but I'm a little puzzled that it seems totally to ignore what is by far the most common usage of the word shibboleth in modern English, which is (to quote the Wikitionary): "a common or longstanding belief or custom associated with a particular group; truism, platitude," as in "the worn-out shibboleths of marxism", or "challenging the shibboleths of the Tory Party." I was vaguely aware of the Old Testament story, but I have never heard the word shibboleth used in the ways discussed in this article, eg the way in which people from Toronto pronounce words. Could something be done to reconnect the article to the actual usage of the word? Adam 10:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

You know, this is the first time I've ever heard of that meaning. That's news to me. Anyway, the article does point out that other uses are at Shibboleth (disambiguation), and that page does indeed mention what you say. Personally I think that's enough. --Kjoonlee 11:24, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

We must be living on different planets. You've never heard the word used that way, and I've only ever heard it used that way. The disambiguation page says nothing at all. I will have a go at some new text tomorrow. Adam 11:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Asimov

I'm pretty sure Asimov's "unionized" shibboleth isn't from his fiction but rather from remarks he made, possibly in a speech. Probably miscategorized. Jerry Kindall 21:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The Wire: cultural reference shibboleths

I just reverted the page to reinclude a reference to the TV show "The Wire" after Aeusoes1 removed it. Part of the reason for my revert had to do with some comments left by Adam Carr, above, concerning uses of the term which are not specifically pronounciation-oriented. This is in fact a reversal of position for me (see my own comments under Baseball Shibboleths, above, written last June), and I'd like to take this opportunity to say that I was wrong the first time around, and that, according to the definition supplied at the very start of the page, the use of cultural references as a means of distinguishing members of a group from non-members would fit into this category very naturally. Buck Mulligan 00:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I only reverted it because it was unclear. Now that you've clarified it I won't remove it unless we remove all the non-language related shibboleths. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 00:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Cool. Good working with you. Buck Mulligan 00:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The "Catholics dig with the left foot" entry...come on. Some people are left oriented, most are right. Religion can't possibly have anything to do with it (Military training MIGHT, since almost all march movements start on the left foot). And if it's "Possibly apocryphal," why list it here? Find out first.Mzmadmike 20:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

stfnal & gafiate

Eliminating "stfnal" and "gafiate" as examples: they are completely irrelevant words now, even for science fiction fans. "Grok" gets 3,000,000+ Google hits, "filk" gets 870,000, "stfnal" only 1,790 and "gafiate" only 2,150. Hu 10:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

"Grok" clearly crossed over some time ago. I hadn't realized "filk" was so widespread, though. I don't think the small number of uses on of a term on the Web is really relevant, though; that is sort of the point of this sort of shibboleth. Certainly old-school SF fans know what all those words mean, even the obscure ones. Interesting find, though. Jerry Kindall 18:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Catalan shibboleth

The catalan example has a problem: it's true that the shibboleth was used during the war of accession but the idea that it was used by the catalans against the turks is at best folklore. After all Catalans would not need this phrase to distinguish the turks, as they would need against the castillians. The first sentence in the section should be changed to read: "the phrase was used by the defenders of Barcelona against the besieging ethnic Spanish (native Castillian speakers)" any objections? Kouk 16:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Changed. Kouk 16:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Toronto vs. Tiranha (rhyming with Piranha)

This is bound to be controversial so I'll raise it here first. Many Torontonians refer to their city as "Tiranha," rhyming with "piranha," in common speech, while out-of-towners will pronounce it the proper "Toronto." Should it be added to the list of place names? Zhankfor

No. That's more than a pronunciation, it's a nickname. And that section is more than long enough. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 18:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I've lived in Toronto my entire life and have *never* called it "Tiranha". --209.195.94.233 21:43, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I bet you weren't born and raised there. I was, and we always knew who was and wasn't really from the city by how they said the word. Ive long since lived in Europe and now pronounce the second 't', just so people don't think I come from "Tiranha". Feels strange every time I do tho. :-)

"Some shibboleths" section

A number of these seem to be merely peculiarities of local or regional pronunciations, and are not even asserted to be shibboleths in their descriptions. I'll remove them unless someone has a good reason why this shouldn't be done. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

• To discourage future additions that are merely regional pecularities, I've added a "see also" link to regional vocabularies and pronunciations. From the article, it is still unclear exactly what a Shibboleth is. First, there seem to be "active Shibboleths" where an idiosyncratic term is intentionally used to flag outsiders, and there's some consequence to the newbies ability to use the term properly. Second, there are "passive Shibboleths" where a person is identified as an outsider when they speak differently than the local lingo, but there are no consequences involved. The utility of this article is that it lists historical examples of "active Shibboleths." The "passive shibboleths" listed here are redundant with other articles. Would it be preferable to identify the distinction between these kinds of shibboleths, remove the section on "Other Shibbolaths," and to instead provide links to pages on Regional Pronunciation, Regional Vocab, etc.? --Kneague 21:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I like the way you phrase it. "Passive Shibboleths" IMO don't belong, especially in the detail that they are given here. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 23:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe the Notable Shibboleth section should list one or two examples of situations when shibboleths come into contact and the rest should be moved to a list of shibboleths article, which would be a dynamic list, this article is getting to unwieldy as is. Any objections? leontes 13:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I've moved the sibboleths to a dynamic page at notable shibboleths. leontes 20:37, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

This page is expanding at an alarming rate (plus: we need references!)

Guys, I realize that everyone has a favorite shibboleth, or something like it, that they feel ought to be included here, but this page has expanded to absurd proportions. As I understand it, the purpose of an encyclopedia entry like this one is to give people a well-rounded understanding of the topic at hand, so that they can leave with a sense of--in this case--what a shibboleth is, which will allow them to spot one on their own in the future. Do we really need or even want a catalogue of all the world's shibboleths, past and present? Well, that's one concern. The other one, more pressing to my mind, is the fact that practically nothing on the page is referenced. I'm going to flag it as unsourced once I figure out how to do that. Buck Mulligan 12:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, somehow I missed the fact that somebody already flagged the article as unreferenced. Good stuff. Now seriously though, I can't possibly be the only person who feels that the article is too long, can I? It seems to me to compromise the look of the article somewhat. Buck Mulligan 12:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I definitely agree with you. How about making a new article "List of shibboleths"? Then we can move all that over there, and probably organize both articles in more legible way.--Aervanath 03:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a great idea, but I don't think I or anyone else should take such drastic measures before we get some more feedback. So... what do other people think of a demerger? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Buck Mulligan (talk • contribs) 23:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

Place Name pronunciation

I'd like to add the often mistaken pronuniciation if the Scottish capital Edinburgh, which is correctly pronounced Edinbura not Edinborow which is a common misprononciation. Can someone help with IPA as I don't know it. Thanks --Brideshead 19:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

ˈedɪnbrə or ˈedɪnbərə is the correct one, the typical foreigners' version is something like ˈedɪnbˌorəʊ, I've also heard ˈedɪnˌbɜːg ("Edinburg")

HairyDan 21:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

AFAIK most natives call the place "Embra". Mr Larrington (talk) 10:15, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Uses in the Media

Never heard the word before I saw it in this article, http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20010696/site/newsweek/page/2/ used by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg in reference to abortion in the second paragraph.

I think it's closer to the second sense listed at wikt:shibboleth. --Kjoonlee 23:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Split infinitive etc

The article references avoidance of split infinitive as being based on the example of Latin, whereas the split infinitive article pretty well demolishes this theory. And I can't see that this could in any case ever have been a shibboleth. Also the stuff about the pronunciation of "-ing" words is not relevant here - it's just a difference in ways of speaking which may have had some relevance to class but was surely never used as a shibboleth in the true sense. I propose to remove this whole section. --rossb (talk) 06:32, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Dylan Thomas

Why is this reference to Thomas's poem a shibboleth? Is there an explanation or reference? I'm tempted simply to remove it as, at best obscure, at worst original research or opinion or nonsense, but i'll leave it in for the time being on the basis that it has been here unchallenged for over a year. Cheers, Lindsay^Hi 18:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Took it out, in the end. Cheers, Lindsay^Hi 04:57, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

xkcd Reference

This was referenced in xkcd today. I'm not sure if it should be added, but I thought I'd mention it here. http://xkcd.com/806/ --Jumper4677 (talk) 20:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually the word used in xkcd was "shibboleet" and amazingly it still brings up 0 results on google! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.92.253 (talk) 15:51, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Nope. It has nothing to do with shibboleths. I am a fan of the comic myself, but there is hardly any point in adding "this was referenced in XKCD" in every topic that is mentioned in the comic. Even worse is people creating articles about "Freemanic paracusia" and other new concepts created by Randall - even if they became widely used, well, Wikipedia is quite strict when it comes to notability of Internet memes... 88.112.51.212 (talk) 06:16, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

IMO, the "shibboleet" word as used in the comic _is_ a shibboleth: a particular word, used properly, marks you as being part of a group with some privileges. Granted, the "proper pronounciation" part is not referenced, but it's not random. Petre RO (talk) 15:15, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, the keyword in the comic indeed indicates access to privileges, like "someone who knows a minimum of two programming languages". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.209.33.70 (talk) 12:00, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Voice samples?

Is it possible to ad voice samples to the article? This would be a great asset in an international multimedia project as ours.--Nemissimo (talk) 12:17, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

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