Talk:Shetland Sheepdog/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Shetland Sheepdog. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Health

As a retired vet nurse of many years, Sheltie breeder/owner/trainer of 20 years and part time lecturer with Vet Science Faculty, I have tidied up the section relating to inherited eye diseases. Hope no one minds.

Bonniebank 13:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Picture

The picture of the Sheltie with the cake is completely pointless and has nothing to do with the caption.

I'd agree. Be bold. But I'll rmv it anyway. Elf | Talk 02:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Look at it again and read the caption again. I understand the meaning of it and think it's very clever! :-))) (Maybe too clever for some). Thank you to whoever took the time and effort to post it. Bonniebank 13:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles aren't supposed to have clever little jokes in them (which is why I just removed the random, albeit really funny, Proust comment). They're supposed to be objectively informative. If someone wants to make Sheltie jokes, they should probably set up a Sheltie humor page to do it. Wikipedia, regrettably, isn't the place. 4.131.37.55 06:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

This article is not a dog show

There were two pictures at the bottom of the article that had nothing to do with the article. The people who added the images were obviously showing off their pets. The image Marley's Birthday had the caption "Shelties are known for their intelligence". WHAT?!?!?!? Stop showing off your pets, whoever you are. A•N•N•Afoxlov e r hello! 02:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Updated Page

As a Sheltie breeder for more than 10 years, and a handler for 15, I've went through and updated most of the individual articles, mostly by adding cites to all of them that needed more cites, or that had no cites listed. Narmowen 21:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Bi-blue picture

Please stop changing the caption to say that the bi-blue is less common but still acceptable. It already has that information in the text.

Narmowen 23:54, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Not a picture of a tricolor?

That is not a tricolor Sheltie. It is a sable. Tricolors are black with tan points on the eyebrows, cheeks, and legs with white markings. This is my tricolor Shetland Sheepdog.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b99/iambonbon05/e11f998f.jpg I'm not sure if I put up that link correctly, but make a google search on tricolor sheltie and you'll get the idea. Or go to the American Shetland Sheepdog Association (assa.org) for a very good description on coat colors.

Actually, you can not have an outside picture display. The best you can do is link to it. --maru (talk) contribs 02:36, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

erm gthis is justa picture and links?

It looks like more is on the way. patience... :-) --Tarquin 18:48 Feb 1, 2003 (UTC)

There is a woeful lack of a picture of a tri-color. Since the first poster has one, maybe they could take a shot and add it? It's odd that there's a bi-color black picture but no tri-color! --Sailor Titan (talk) 18:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Sable?

The dog in the first picture is a mahogany sable.

I personally like the colors of the mahogany sable sheltie. Those colors are beautiful.

I just checked with sannse (who took the photo) and she said "first book I grabbed - describes sable and "black hairs over brown or golden base colour" - that's certainly wht this one has in the main (picture)", so I've changed it. Alph a x ^τεχ 13:57, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Constant reverting

Is there a reason for the constant reverting? I think it looks more linear with the history first, and then everything else in order. Also, I like the way the brief description of the Sheltie looks rather than the brief physical of it. I've seen it both ways, but I think with as long as the article is, the more detail in that box, the better. Narmowen (talk) 13:52, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Ears?

No where in the breed standard does it say the ears have to be tiped to show. If they aren't, it's a fault, not a disqualification per AKC/ASSA rules and standard. http://www.akc.org/breeds/shetland_sheepdog/index.cfm What's up with that? --Jay 08:21, 24 April 2006 (UTC) Fireball74

Haven't done a great job of rmving it there, now have you?

What is the definition of etretwettwertwtars? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.175.61 (talk) 20:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Icelandic Sheepdog

It says on the page for the Icelandic Sheepdog that it was a descendant of modern shelties. If this is true, maybe it should go in the sheltie article.--Sailor Titan (talk) 20:51, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Not quite what it says: the Icelandic Sheepdog is similar to the ancestor of the Shetland Sheepdog. Yes, it does need to be included here. Richard New Forest (talk) 22:25, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Ears

Small edit to ears section to make it more of an encyclopedic article and less of a "how to" article. Although I believe I understand what the original author was trying to accomplish, I don't believe wikipedia is the place to explain how to correct "prick ears". Wikibooks/wikiversity perhaps. Keetanii (talk) 10:34, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I believe this edit has corrected the previous concern re: "How to" status, I've removed the "How to" alert tag. Ygbsm (talk) 16:30, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Grooming

Removed the "How to" information as well as the how to alert tag on this section. Added some further grooming information to keep the article similar to the Rough Collie grooming section. I believe some further references would be useful to back up arguments made such as those referring to shaving the coat. I will see what I can find. Keetanii (talk) 23:05, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Size

I think that the size range is a bit small. I know the breed standard is a maximum of 16 inches. Also, I know of many males shelties that weigh 25 to 30 pounds, and they aren’t overweight dogs. What do people think?

I'd say that you could go to each of the breed stds listed here, find the largest & smallest, & edit this text to say something like most breed standards specify heights within this range for show dogs, but many individuals fall outside these ranges or the equivalent. True for pretty much all breeds, too. --Elf | Talk 21:34, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Our breeder told us that because the Sheltie is such a new breed the sizes can vary a lot (more than some of the older breeds) ... but the sizes I put there are the more common sizes. I don't mind if it's edited, but then you have to change the height max to 20 ... because some Shelties are that tall. Our Sheltie is a female and she's 12 inches in height and weighs 12 pounds. I like the idea of putting the disclaimer type text in there :). Just my 2 cents. --Talia 13:22, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

We bought two Sheltie puppies at the same time - they're now 14 weeks old - and they're both around that height already! Also, I'm not sure Shetland Collie is an obsolete term everywhere, ours were sold to us under that name. --Proto t c 13:21, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

One person I know who has what I believe to be an AKC-registered Sheltie lists his breed as "Sheltzilla" because he's so big, easily as big as a small Rough Collie. Of course, the other possibility is that you really did get a "Shetland-Collie" (mix)! Since Shetland Sheepdog has been used as the official name in English-speaking kennel & breed clubs for quite a long time (although I'll admit I can't say for how long--in the U.S. at least since I was a kid, which was mumble mumble decades ago), I'd wonder about a breeder that called it by that older name. But it's also true that old names die hard. --Elf | Talk 21:19, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I've heard that lines that had more Rough Collie crossed into them sometimes tend to produce larger dogs. My Sheltie is overweight & currently on a diet/exercise regime, but given her size, around 18" at the shoulder, she'd be a wreck if she stayed within the normal Sheltie weight limits for a 13"-ish dog - we're trying to get her down to around 30 lbs. 4.131.37.55 06:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The AKC specifies the acceptable range of height for shelties. Some shelties are bigger and some are smaller, but this is NOT ideal. They still make wonderful pets, but are not suitable for showing. So simply put the ideal range and acknowledge that not all dogs fall into this category.LochNessDonkey 16:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

My experience: Our first sheltie (male) weighed in at around 38 pounds, I think. Our second (also male), is 45 pounds. He's healthy and in shape. The vet says he's not fat at all. Shelties can just really vary sometimes. We actually were able to get this one from the breeder because she could tell he'd be way to big to show. At some herding trials a number of years ago we saw shelties ranging from about 8 lbs to 60 I'd guess. The one looked like a toy dog, the other like a regular collie. I think it would just be enough to note, as LochNessDonkey says, that the dogs can (and I would add often) fall outside the ideal range. ~PW 11:49 3 July 2007

Well I have a 50 pound male Sheltie. And I'm training to be a vet so I know that he's not overweight. Large Sheltie still make great pets but aren't show quality. Though they can be as agile in agility as any other Sheltie. They make great pets and are still as loyal as smaller Shelties. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lillycove (talk • contribs) 09:01, August 22, 2007 (UTC).

The weight in this article is much too low. My Sheltie, a Canadian Champion, weights in at 36-37 pounds in the summer and bulks up to 38-39 in the winter. He's right at the limit of 16 inches and it a strong, muscled dog. The breed isn't that new, it's a 100 years old and I would question any breeder that would give the age of a breed as a reason for breeding a 12 inch sheltie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.232.63.111 (talk) 21:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Just a minor point, but the AKC breed standard and that of the Kennel Club are different, and here in the UK for dogs the ideal height is 14.5 inches with anymore than a 1 inch variance from this being a serious fault, perhaps it should be noted that different countries have different breed standads for shelties? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.252.123 (talk) 11:58, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Have not been able to find a good and reputable source for weight information on the sheltie. I agree that a dog should not be considered overweight if the weight is made up of muscle and not fat. I have put in links to the breed standards for most countries as well as the tabulated data for the height ranges acceptable in those countries. Keetanii (talk) 00:34, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Showing Requirements Section

Deleted this section, it is obsolete and is not breed specific. This page is just about the Shetland Sheepdog, and not about the "ins-and-outs" of confirmation show competition. That information should be placed on a seperate page such as Conformation_show. Keetanii (talk) 00:43, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Referencing and Citations please!

Far too much heresay. People may be relying on personal experience, however this is an non-academic way of writing and is not acceptable in an encyclopaedic article. Personal experiences and knowledge which cannot be cited belongs in blogs, not wikipedia articles :) If anyone finds some valid references please put them in. Please see the small print below any changes made which states "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable." Keetanii (talk) 06:55, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

This is a huge problem with dog breed articles, it seems -- they really need help. Maybe I'll take a stab at updating this and citing things today; it certainly helps to have someone else working on the same article ;) — anndelion (talk) 14:58, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the help Anndelion, it's looking good :) Keetanii (talk) 21:03, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

MDR1 Gene Mutation

According to washington state university, the shetland sheepdog is one of the breeds at risk for the mdr1 gene mutation which can cause lethal reactions to common canine drugs. This might be useful to people as a test is readily available and the drugs can be avoided. Can someone add this?

I think the un-signed poster above was referring to http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vcpl/drugs.aspx and http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/printable/VCPL-Flier.pdf It would be great if someone with more knowledge than myself on this topic could add some information regarding this topic. Keetanii (talk) 23:22, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Now done :), wasn't as hard as I thought. Keetanii (talk) 23:59, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Infobox Image

The so called "1900's style dog" picture is not representative of the breed. I have twice now reverted it to the Blue Merle picture. The other picture has a dog with prick ears, a fault for this breed. This is important as the "proper sheltie expression" is characteristic to the breed. I have no idea why someone would keep reverting back to the other one unless they had vested interest in the prick-eared-dog or photo. If you are going to change the image again, please state here, a good reason, why you feel it necessary. Cheers. --Keetanii (talk) 07:46, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I might also note that the person constantly reverting to the image of the dogs with obvious breed faults is also the owner of the photo. Keetanii (talk) 03:11, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Photo Rationale

As of this edit, the basic photo rationale for this page was:

A good side view photo on plain background for the info box
Old B&W photograph in History section to show how much / little the breed has changed in 100 years
Merle pattern, young pup.
Tri colour
The difference between Shelties and Rough 'Lassie' Collies photo.
Facial profile picture,which I would love to swap for a good quality photo of a blue merle or mahogany sable.
Mostly white Sheltie, to show they do exist and to complement the text about health conditions and breeding colours.
Bi-black 'border collie colour pattern'.

Basically I was aiming to have at least one good photo of each colour variation as well as a mix of young and adult dogs. Certainly, I agree that colour isn't everything, but it is an encyclopedia and the aim is for it to be useful for people who have never seen the breed as well as people who are familiar with the breed. I am mentioning this for future editors who wish to change the photos, in the hope that they will consider what information the new picture adds to the page and not just swap photos so that their dog is on Wikipedia. Cheers, Keetanii (talk) 23:53, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I think I can add a photo of my blue merle male, and a mahogany female. I'll put them up on my user page, and if you want to use them, Keetanii, you can go ahead and take them. 198.111.204.46 (talk) 22:01, 19 October 2011 (UTC)Narmowen

White Sheltie Picture

The dog is a double blue merle, and while it DOES have blue eyes, they are NOT a fault with a blue merle. Any other color blue eyes are a fault, but not blues. It also has microthalmia (small/underdeveloped) in the right eye, due to it being a double blue merle. Narmowen (talk) 03:43, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

"Shetland"

Shetland is a very generic naming, it could be a number of different things, horses, dogs, and so on, Sheltie is however used. Hafspajen (talk) 19:28, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Hafs. I am about to restore the version prior to TheMagikCow's edits. As I explained on his talk page, it is incorrect to refer to the breed as simply 'Shetland' - it is either a 'Shetland Sheepdog' or 'Sheltie' - Montanabw also agreed this is the correct terminology. I have also checked the references that were added, this and this, and they are not reliable sources as both are personal websites with no editorial control. SagaciousPhil - Chat 09:12, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

clipping of vocal cords

Are Shelties the dogs with the highest rate of devocalization?--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 16:00, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

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Inaccuracies

There are many inaccuracies in this article.

For instance "Mating a sable and white to a blue merle can produce a sable merle, which is undesirable for the show ring." This is incorrect, they are permitted, and not faulted, in the show ring as long as they don't have blue eyes.

Also "A tri-colour to a pure-for-sable (a sable and white which can produce only other sable and whites), will produce only sable and whites, but they will be tri-factored sable and whites (which means they have the tri-gene.)" This is ALSO not considered a fault.

I'm not sure WHO is writing this information but it is full of misleading and incorrect statements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.110.202.239 (talk) 17:51, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Final Citations

Ok I'm almost done with working on the citations for this page (phew!) See it IS possible! We just need four more if anyone can help? one for each of the following:

"Shelties normally weigh around 5–14 kilograms (11–31 lb)"
"During the early 20th century (up until the 1940s), additional crosses were made to Rough Collies to help retain the desired Rough Collie type – in fact, the first AKC Sheltie champion's dam was a purebred rough Collie bitch."
"The Shetland sheepdog in its modern form has never been used as a working dog on Shetland, and ironically it is uncommon there.(Shetland Isles)"

This is actually incorrect, and I'd like to change this and add a citation. Shelties were used for herding until commercial livestock farming required larger breeds. Szczurekn (talk) 00:26, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

"some do not regrow any significant amount of hair after being shaved. Spaying and neutering can alter coat texture, making it softer and more prone to matting and even more profuse."

Cheers, Keetanii (talk) 23:56, 4 April 2011 (UTC)