Talk:Sheet bend

Sails are not called sheets, and never were

According to https://www.etymonline.com/word/sheet, that hasn't been the case since at least the 13th century. Per the etymology, the roots for the similar terms for bedsheet and sail were actually different terms, with the same root in proto-Germanic (when it was not "sheet.") If I don't receive a correction, I'll fix the text. Jlearman (talk) 17:12, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Weaver's knot

The Weaver's knot is a different way to tie this map and perhaps it should either be listed here or linked. - Texnofobix 02:51, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The Ashley Book of Knots is rather unclear on this definition. The wording of ABoK #1418 does suggest that the "Weaver's Knot" refers uniquely to a sheet bend tied using the "bowline bunny method". However, on the same page he then states that

"Weaver's Knots are bends that are designed to be permanently tied in small material. There are four pages of Weaver's Knots near the end of Chapter 2"

Thus I think the sentence about Weaver's Knots in this article is rather misleading, and does not add much useful information. Perhaps instead we could write something like:

"The sheet bend can also be tied by the same procedure as the "bunny method" used to tie a bowline. Tied in this way, Ashley lists the sheet bend as a type of "weaver's knot" (#1418), suitable for joining threads that have parted in the loom.

Mtford 20:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Ashley uses the relation of "Sheet Bend" (ABoK #1) and *the* (not *a*) "Weaver's Knot" (ABoK #2) for explaining why he may choose to use different names for knots of the same structure.

A different way either of tying or applying a form generally constitutes a second knot. (ABoK re. knots #1 and #2)

--Netizen 14:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Right, but unfortunately his usage of the term is not consistent. Look at the four-page section on "Weavers" in the Occupational Knots chapter (pages 78-81). Mtford 07:20, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

There's now an image of the sheet-bend form of weaver's knot, tied by the method Ashley shows. It would be entertaining to see someone try to tie a bowline like that. __66.189.77.47 (talk) 05:12, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

That image has been removed. Before I put it back, here's an opportunity to comment... I believe if the lead mentions "weaver's knot" as an alternate name, then it makes sense for the body of the article to show where the difference lies, namely in the method of tying. __Just plain Bill (talk) 22:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Honestly, I find it misleading to say that the Sheet Bend is also referred to as a "Weaver's Knot" in the Intro, as that is in effect a different knot. (See contribution from Netizen above.) That's where the confusion (in the article) starts, which I found in reading it (in the form prior to my edits) confusing and a bit cluttered with the addition of the Weaver Knot content and image. Indeed, a Weaver Knot is a similar knot; perhaps it would be best served with a page of its own and link to this one for cross-reference, rather than being appended here.

Truthfully, a Becket Hitch is closer to a Sheet Bend (in form and intent), being identical in form (only the eye it is tied through differing, from a simple bight in a line). Of course, being a hitch it is not a bend, and thus deserves its own page.

As for the four-part image, try as I might I just can't make out how the knot is being tied, even with the red arrows. The image does more to confound me than illuminate. Anyone else? Wikiuser100 (talk) 01:38, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Piece of cake. Just swat the ends together as shown, wind around, and tuck the other end through. Pull tight, and it's done in less than a jiffy.

Steps in tying a weaver's knot

Seems easy to me... ;-)

I'm still scouting around in Ashley for the part where he calls the bunny way to tie a bowline or sheet bend the "lubber's method." When I find it, it gets to be a wikipedia reference... __Just plain Bill (talk) 05:08, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

No other comments in a week; unless I see a strong objection here, I plan to put the weaver's knot image back. The method of tying is the only thing, apart from the size of cordage involved, that marks the difference between two topologically identical knots. Sorry if you find the image confusing, but I don't see that as a reason to keep it out of Wikipedia. The sequence is identical to that found in Ashley, which is where I learned this method. I admit it took a bit of scrutiny, with bits of string in hand, but it is actually quite simple, once you get it. In addition, it's easy to remember, which is one of Ashley's criteria for a useful knot.__Just plain Bill (talk) 21:19, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

No comments, a week further along, so I've put the image back, as well as some text regarding the method of tying. Note well that the weaver's knot method bears little resemblance to the "experienced sailor's or mountaineer's" method of tying a bowline. The entertainment value of watching either process is much diminished by the rapidity of its execution. ;-) __Just plain Bill (talk) 00:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

The knot drawn on this image is also refered to as a Weaver's knot, although it is really different. How should it be inclueded in this page ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.15.116.239 (talk) 11:44, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Images

As a knot novice, the steps from 1 to 2 in the step through are unclear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.105.148.178 (talk) 14:06, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

(moved from my talk page):

I respect your advice about high resolution images. I thank you and will learn to upload larger versions. I grew up when the Internet was so slow that large images were to be avoided if possible. Old habits die hard.

However, I don't think we should display an image where both ends of the large rope are lost to view. The whole point is to emphasize the importance of passing the line first round the short end of the larger rope. I have larger images and will insert a replacement if you approve.

Best wishes, Grog (Alan W. Grogono)

Wikipedia Name: Grogono

• Don't worry—Wikipedia automatically scales down the image to an appropriate thumbnail, while also allowing the original to be retrieved for a closer look or for printing. How big are your images? If they're of comparable resolution then I have no problem with you replacing mine. If not, then it's easy for me to take a new picture—I think you're right that it's better to show both ends of the larger rope. (PS. you should sign your posts with ~~~~ to datestamp them and automatically link your username.) — brighterorange (talk) 21:25, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
• I just noticed you've uploaded a bunch of images to the various knot pages in addition to this one. This is great, and thanks for being generous about licensing your photographs to everyone. May I make a few suggestions? First, it'd be best if you can upload the highest resolution image you have and then use the "thumb" image style so that it's automatically shrunk down (see what I did on sheet bend for instance). This also gives you a place to put a caption, so that you don't need to put the text into the image itself. (I'd also recommend against putting the text into the image—it makes it harder for people to reuse the image in other contexts, and is kind of non-standard style on Wikipedia, so it looks a bit odd.) Finally, I recommend uploading to the wikimedia commons instead of wikipedia directly. If you do this, then your images can be used on all of the different language wikipedias. The syntax for including images uploaded on the commons is the same as here. (By the way, I think your images are quite nice, so if we can get high-res versions of them without too much compression artifacts, they will be a real asset to the project. Thanks!) — brighterorange (talk) 21:38, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

German wiki has a nice lead image, but it's copyrighted. I used one of their other images, which is of the knot before it's tightened. The problem with ours was that we needed a second image just to show how it was tied! kwami (talk) 20:56, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Related to square/granny/thief knot?

The first sentence of this article states that the sheet bend is related to the square knot, granny knot, thief knot and bowline. I know it has the same structure as a bowline (with a different load configuration), but how is it related to the first three? Mtford 14:16, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd say it's a mistake. This statement is already in the first revision of the article created by anonymous. --Netizen 17:24, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It's a safer equivalent of the reef knot for what most people use that for. kwami (talk) 17:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC) One thing I noticed is that it seems the Sheet bend can be arrived at by proceeding as for the Reef knot: Left over Right, tuck under, Right over Left, then instead of tuck under, here you tuck the final working-end down between the lower cross-over. SignedJohnsonL623 (talk) 09:23, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Similarly ,you can tie the Zeppelin bend by starting out following the Granny knot procedure until the final 'tuck under', where instead of tuck under, you tuck the final working-end down between the lower cross-over. SignedJohnsonL623 (talk) 09:30, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Short-end?

Does anyone have an illustration of how to tie a short-end sheet bend? It can be useful, and would be a nice way to flesh out this article. kwami (talk) 17:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Secure/Insecure photos

The sheet bend photos labeled "secure" and "insecure" are basically mirror images. What makes one knot more secure than the other? Jedidog (talk) 07:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

They're not mirror images. Look at the free ends. In the photo labeled "Secure," the red free end and the green free end are on the same side. In the photo labeled "Insecure,", the red rope is in the same position, but the green rope has been routed through the knot differently, so that its free end is on the opposite side from the red end. Petershank (talk) 20:32, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Weaver's knots

Firstly, apologies for adding an image without discussion. Anyway-it is significant Rene is one of the last Lancashire Loom weavers still producing cloth on line shaft driven looms. The tone of her voice shows she has given this demonstration many times before- just as she learnt it. Do watch.

Coming here from cotton I am amazed that a weavers knot is considered to be a sheet bend or we think we can justice to both of them in the same article. (Yes I do know the difference between a sheet and a halliard). I would expect to see a definition of both sheet and a bend in the sheet bend article-- and a lot more about wool silk and cotton in the weaver's knot article.

Just a thought. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 17:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Image showing method of tying weaver's knot

@Wikiuser100: "Honestly, I find it misleading to say that the Sheet Bend is also referred to as a "Weaver's Knot" in the Intro, as that is in effect a different knot." I agree with this statement. Perhaps it would be better if we don't mention it at the beginning? Then the names of the different methods can be discussed further down.

The photo is great, but it took me many tries to get it right. This is because I didn't understand the first photo. I think extending the red arrow a little bit to make it circle around the rope might make it clearer? Here is what I was thinking (outside link because I'm barred from uploading it here).

Coloured the ropes as well in case that might help anyone. Malik.albahlani (talk) 16:05, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Adding tints to the strings improves the image's clarity. Thanks!

Extending the red arrow in the first frame, however, makes it confusing, IMO. I think it would work better if the line and arrowhead were only extended a little bit, to stop just below the horizontal string. Just plain Bill (talk) 17:56, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Is this what you mean?

Image showing the method of tying a weaver's knot

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Malik.albahlani (talk • contribs) 08:43, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

The position of the arrowhead is better than in the original, but the standing part of the string in the demonstrator's right hand goes over the other string, as shown by the result in the following frame. (Also, making the red line cross the green string just a bit further from its end would show the way it leads more clearly.) Just plain Bill (talk) 11:57, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Updated the photo. I'll put it on the page since I took so long to get back to you on this.Malik.albahlani (talk) 08:27, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Visually that works better, but the red line should be hidden by the blue string and cover the green string in the first frame. Just plain Bill (talk) 20:23, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood your previous comment. I'm gonna redo the whole thing so it looks nicer as well. MalB404 (talk) 09:37, 6 October 2019 (UTC)