Talk:Shadia Abu Ghazala School massacre

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Shadia Abu Ghazala School massacre article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Further information

The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:

Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.

With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:

Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions.
Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Crime and Criminal Biography Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Death Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

International relations Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Israel Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Project Israel To Do:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles.
Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page.
Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration.
Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005
Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel.
Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah
See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Wikipedia.
Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data.
Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes.
Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention.
Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Wikipedia requested maps in Israel.
NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries
Photo : Add pictures to articles in Wikipedia requested photographs in Israel.
Stubs : See Israel stubs.
Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People
Other :
- Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary.

Israel Palestine Collaboration

This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration, a collaborative, bipartisan effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. For guidelines and a participants list see the project page. See also {{Palestine-Israel enforcement}}, the ArbCom-authorized discretionary sanctions, the log of blocks and bans, and Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. You can discuss the project at its talk page.Israel Palestine CollaborationWikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationTemplate:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationIsrael Palestine Collaboration articles

Military history: Middle East / Post-Cold War

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

Associated task forces:
/
	Middle Eastern military history task force
	Post-Cold War task force

Palestine Mid‑importance

	Palestine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Call for deletion cause the event is not even verified

How is this topic making it to Wikipedia before it was even verified? Wikipedia is supposed to be about facts, not about personal opinion, Al Jazeera is the only source for this event and it was proven many times to be biased and fabricating facts in this matter. Same as the reports for the Al Ahli hospital was hit by a PLO rocket miss-fire, which was an managed in an embarrassing conduct by the community here in Wikipedia. This topic should be deleted until further investigation is made. 106.153.181.64 (talk) 17:03, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(English) Al-Jazeera is considered reliable enough by Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources TuaamWiki (talk) 20:45, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can you give any examples of a time Al Jazeera has fabricated something? They do have a bias, but it manifests in which stories they focus on, the stories they do present are widely regarded as a reliably factual.

And you're the first person I've seen accuse the PLO of Al-Ahli, where did you hear that? The group the IDF accused were PIJ, and the media all called it "Hamas".

Irtapil (talk) 17:46, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"routine coverage"?

This kind of event should not become routine!? Irtapil (talk) 21:52, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This story does not make much sense. There was no school in session in all of Gaza, yet they say all the students were killed. No one apart from fringe news sources are picking this up. The witnesses did not seem to be telling the truth by their unemotional accounts of what would be a horrific event. It's also impossible to witness this whole event, they just stayed and watched? They didn't scream, didn't run and were not scared. At one point the male said he came upon the bodies and in another part said he saw the executions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardya (talk • contribs) 22:22, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Number of issues with this article

1. POV title that reliable sourcing, nor even the sources cited here does not support. Only highly partisan or non-reliable sources use "massacre" as a title, which would only be allowed as POVTITLE if it were the WP:COMMONNAME which it is not. Most non-biased reliable sources refer only to witness claims instead of referring to this as an event. Reuters refers to it in the context of a raid in Jabalia and any confirmed, reliable information should be rolled up there.

Propose renaming to Jabalia raid or something to that effect, which matches how generally unbiased RS describe the event (such as the Reuters report).

2. Is there independent confirmation that this even happened as stated? Reuters quotes an eyewitness, but does not independently confirm his account. Al-Jazeera, biased but generally reliable, quotes witnesses and family members.Reuters also refers to it in the context of a raid in Jabalia. New Arab, biased but generally reliable, just repeats the AJ report. Reuters and Al-Jazeera seem to confirm the presence of bodies, however. If such an event happened like claimed, multiple RS would pick this up, and this coverage is necessary per WP:EXCEPTIONAL anyway. Longhornsg (talk) 19:15, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most media were not there. Most western media were being refused entry by Israel in December. Al Jazeera and the New Arab had journalists who were already in Gaza City before the lockout. Associated Press purekireki had an office im Gaza City office destroyed in the destruction of al-Jalaa Building on 15 May 2021. AFP had some photographers, but they may have evacuated south in December. But, as you say, Reuters did consider it important enough to repeat. MWQs (talk) 13:57, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The school was being used as a shelter by families, this is explained in the introduction of the page, and removing "massacre" from the name is not supported by the source you link, which opens with, "When the Israeli soldiers entered the Gaza school where Yousef Khalil was sleeping near his family, they began shooting indiscriminately, killing nine people including children…" MWQs (talk) 14:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many shelters are used by Palestinian militants as well.

Were there militants there? Were there militants inside the classroom? That's part of journalism, and that is the part that is missing. If they just entered the classroom and shot everyone, how are there witnesses? So perhaps the witnesses were outside and had limited vision?

Raw testimony without journalistic verification has it's limitations, and wikipedia should address these limitations when giving such titles which only Al Jazeera used (and they too only rely on raw testimony)y 77.137.67.134 (talk) 06:47, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It Happened

I tried to create a page for this event but it was automatically rejected. Personal opinions of Palestinians and Al Jazeera shouldn't be considered when considering rejecting an article. It was obvious the person who rejected my attempt didn't even bother watching the video.

As far as the title being a "massacre". This term is usually used when civilians are attacked for no reason, which is the case here. I have reason to believe that this was a revenge attack. Before the Israelis stormed the school, a bomb went off and killed 40 Israeli soldiers. I've seen the video and will attempt to locate it. One of my sources is from Telegram, and another from Al Jazeera. I will try to find the aftermath videos.

There is accuracy from Al Jazeera, even if there is a bias. We are expected to automatically believe the IDF even if they have been caught lying before.

Also, it is important to note that this school was named after a female terrorist who was killed by Israel. This is one reason that certain people want to deny this happened, and no one other than Al Jazeera will touch it.

Also, schools are where people go to when hiding from bombings. So it doesn't matter if there was no school in session, a large civilian building such as a school would obviously be occupied by civilians fleeing the bombing.

And Al Jazeera isn't fringe. They just show you the videos that other media doesn't want Americans to see. I will spend some time finding the article about a trap used to bomb Israeli soldiers on this same day.

FROM MY DRAFT:

“The Israeli soldiers came in and opened fire on them,” a woman at the scene said. “They took all men, then entered classrooms and opened fire on a woman and all the children with her.”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/12/13/israel-hamas-war-live-world-calls-for-ceasefire-as-israel-bombards-gaza

The woman said there were newborn children among them. “The Israeli soldiers executed those innocent families at point blank,” she added. Video of the aftermath has confirmed all those killed were civilians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FveRpSsCfOU

Silusshahi (talk) 14:46, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Silusshahi, was there anything from your draft that's still missing in the article? MWQs (talk) 13:43, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote my draft on day one, and it did lack some information that this article has. Silusshahi (talk) 14:03, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Silusshahi, I meant the other way around. Is there anything you had in your draft that needs to be added here? MWQs (talk) 14:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Follow up?

Is this follow up on the same incident?

Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor #Summary executions

MWQs (talk) 11:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]