Talk:Shabaks

untitled comments

why is it allowed for the exiled assyrian community in the united states to disort the reality on the ground by seperating our kurdish nation into zazaki, yezidi etc i can not tolerate this and the sources , aina and christians of iraq have an anti kurdish attitude and try to seperate our people according to religious differences both yezidis and shabak are kurds and belong to the kurdish nation and they have fought alongside their kurdish brothers the assyrians pay people from the yezidi and shabak community to say that they are non kurds , but these are individuals , yezidis and shabak serve in the peshmerga forces , have contributed a lot to our culture and wish to be part of the kurdish region it may be true , that shabak are a mixture of kurdish and turkmen tribes and can be either seen as a distinct ethnic group , kurdish or turcoman , but in all they are more of a tribe or better confederation of tribes , you can find this kind of mixed kurdish and turkish tribes in turkey too, but in general, they consider themself to be kurd this is a well known fact all over the region . please , stop disorting the reality portraying tensions between kurds and shabak, shabaks are kurds and only because the majority of kurds in iraq happens to be sunni, it does not mean that other groups within the kurds like yezidis, faillis,shabak or kurdish christians are something else it is untolerable to reduce our identy to sunni islam and one or two dialects we are really a heterogen nation with differents dialects sometimes considered to be different languages and different believes but we have a common sense of belonging to eachother and again, i know some assyrian wish to establish their state in the niveah plains and try to protray the kurds living there , mostly shabak or yezidis as a differnt group but it does not mean, that is the truth. They are kurds —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.136.108.71 (talk • contribs)

I have lived a good amount of my years in the Nineveh plains and I did not met one Shabak claiming to be Kurdish. However, you are right about Yezidis (even thou some within their communities delcine their Kurdish edentity.) Chaldean 02:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

i provided links in which it is stated that shabak wre originally of kizilbash tribes wo have settled in kurdistan or northern iraq and mixed with kurds
why are they deleted
so what , i have seen shabak who claim to be kurdish
poersonal encounters are always not good
the fact remains , that they are generally considered as kurdish —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.136.104.153 (talk • contribs) 18:07, 25 November 2006.

The sad thing is, the voice of the Shabak is only heard from political leaders who have no knowledge in our history, and acknowledge it the way it will suit their political agenda. The shabak people have very little to say on the matter.

In a political sense, saying that Shabak are Kurds, essentially means that Shabak are loyal to Kurdistan rather than Iraq, that is not the case. Even though it is indoubtly a big connection between Kurds and Shabak (and most likely they have the same origin), they differ in a major aspect, Kurds consider Kurdistan their homeland, when Shabak consider Iraq.

Non-Kurds?!

It's entirely nonsensical! Shabak or Shawak exactly is a Kurdish term (from Arabic "shafaq" شفق) widely used amoung Ahle Haq Kurds of Iran and Iraq in meaning of "light" (as the other Ahle Haq sects also possess the same names as "Atesh-Beygi" or "Beyg-Tashi/Baktashi" (Iranian "atash" ~ "fire") or "Alevi" (Turkish "flame"), and eventually "Musha'sha'i" (from Arabic "asha'a" ~ "ray").

Also almost all followers of Heterodox sects relating to Yarsan and Ahle Haq speak a variaty of Gorani (known as Zaza-Gorani). As well as Shabaks. Also since many Turcomans converted into these Heterodox Kurdish sects, there are a fair mix of Kurdish and Turcoman amoung religous community of Shabak.

No need to mention during Ottoman Empire and stinky period of "Religous Fascism" all Non-Muslim communities (no matter of which Ethnic Group) were bothered... Also Kurdish Sunnites had a steady instency on calling Non-Muslim Kurds as "Non-Kurdish"! But these have nothing to do with denying the common Kurdish origin (language, culture, religion) of Non-Muslim Kurdish Communities! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.38.13.174 (talk) 11:54, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Kurds?

hmmm i think the kurds are getting their revenge and this is kurdification, because shabaks are well known to be non-kurds.

Please sign your posts. ناهد/(Nåhed) _speak! 07:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Mistakes in Article

Since there is very little on Shabak in the Internet I cannot provide you with any sources (atleast that is accurate) from the internet. But what the wrongs in the article that I know for sure are those:

"The Shabak people is a Kurdish minority group of Iraq who live in the province of Ninawa."

We were never a Kurdish minority in all their history until 2003. Not even the kurds of Mosul claimed that. The only reason KRG would claim that is to claim more territory in Nineveh. In Saddams time Shabak (and other ethnicities) had to choose either to be Kurds or Arab, if there was a Shabak choice, then every one would sign Shabak.

"They are scattered in 35 villages located in the east of Mosul."

This site http://www.shabaknews.com/ mentions 46 villages.

"A large part of the Shabaks follow a faith, which has every characteristic of an independent religion and distinct from Islam. It contains elements of Islam, as well as Christianity and other religions."

I've asked my father, I've asked alot of reletives, I've asked sunni and shia shabaks, I've asked Bajalanis, and no one knows where that came from. This is what they tell me. Shabak are 75-80 percent shia and 20-25 sunni, and some are christians, although I don't know the scale. I read somewhere that they had those elements you mention, but that is not the case today. Today they are either sunni or shia.

"There is a close affinity between the Shabak and the Yazidis, and Shabaks perform pilgrimage to Yazidi shrines[3]. "

Bartallah is mainly christian, but still you have 1/4 of the population shabak, and since they live side by side with christians, they become bonded with christians. Then you have villages were shabak and yezidi live close, they naturally bond. This is usual with all etnicities in all Mosul and outside. I myself have never been in a Yazidi shrine, in my village Tobzawa, there are a numbers of Ahl al Haqq followers, naturally we would have close bonds with them (they actually claim to be shabak aswell).

"The word shabak also in Kurdish means light in the darkness which probably is a more proper name for a religious sect."

I can guarentee you that shabak IS NOT a religious sect. It is an independent ethnicity that is very close to kurdish (this is my opinion, many kurds would differ).

I hope you people check the facts before putting your google facts on Wiki. Under Saddam we were had to join the army if we chose an arab identity, and were percecuted if we chose kurd. Now we are again used, but for the purpose of the KRG. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.253.246.205 (talk) 07:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

"We were never a Kurdish minority in all their history until 2003..."

I'm entirely in un-agreement with you. Since all Iranian sources put both Bajalan and Shabak as "Close Kurdish Religous Minorities".

"I can guarentee you that shabak IS NOT a religious sect."

It's a flat fact that Shabaks are remarkable since their special religous ect close to that of Kakai and Bajalan Kurds. Also, for you knowledge NO Non-Kurdish people ever speak any Gorani dialect. I'm sure ure aware of Shabak speech being vraiaty of Hewramani (specially Kakai) Kurdish (a language different from Kurmanci-Sorani Kurdish) which has accepted many Sorani and Turcoman loans. (e.g Shabak/Hewrami/Sorani "min zelame me-ti" ~ "min piyawe me-winu" ~ "min zelame de-binim"). (78.38.13.218 (talk) 08:04, 30 October 2008 (UTC)).

Please sign your posts. ناهد/(Nåhed) _speak! 07:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

population

According to the United Nations figures in 2012 Shabaks population in all of the world to 450,000 people.تیراژه (talk) 07:55, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Both Shabaks and Yazidis numbered around 30,000 in the 1947 census.[1] since Yazidis vastly outnumbered Shabaks I doubt their numbers exceed 100,000.--Rafy talk 19:22, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Flag of the Schabak

i would like to add the flag of the shabaks.

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crwflags.com%2Ffotw%2Fimages%2Fi%2Fiq_shabk.gif&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crwflags.com%2Ffotw%2Fflags%2Fiq_shabk.html&h=216&w=323&tbnid=-BPur-ANNTXChM%3A&zoom=1&docid=5BASQZdk6LeIgM&ei=S6tOU8WaOMidtQaR4oDIAw&tbm=isch&client=firefox-a&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=308&page=2&start=15&ndsp=20&ved=0CKABEK0DMBc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.240.97.30 (talk) 16:10, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect links removed

Incorrect Links which have nothing to do with the article and aina a anti Kurdish racist source removed. To use just one anti Kurdish source to fill the whole article with lies is not allowed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alan Genco (talk • contribs) 15:32, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Flag

Shabaks have no own national flag. The flag that was posted here was just a digital product, and was never used in real live. You will find no picture that shows Shabaks with such or a similar flag.

There is no Shabak party, movement or any other group that accepted such a flag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JapanerRusse (talk • contribs) 15:43, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

You may have your own opinions regarding the politics of the flag, but it is totally false to claim that it isn't used by at least some Shabaks. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 03:18, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Catlemur's edit

3) "... A Shia Shabak and President of the Iraqi Minorities Council (IMC), Hunain Qaddo consistently distinguishes between Kurds and Shabak..." So, where is the mention of Kurdification? --Gomada (talk) 16:43, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

"Kurdish political parties, such as the KDP, are often accused of attempting to co-opt ethnic minorities into declaring themselves Kurds. Post has received such allegations from Yezidi, Christian, and Turcoman communities. Those who resist such a designation complain of being harassed by Kurdish authorities." You accused me of pushing POV while ignoring the above statement.How does it feel?--Catlemur (talk) 16:49, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

You still don't understand what you read. That quotation what you posted, is a comment not Hunain Qaddo's opinion and the part you changes starts According to Hunain Qaddo... Don't change it, until you understand well!--Gomada (talk) 16:58, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree, that was an omission on my part but it is fixed now.--Catlemur (talk) 17:05, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I suppose that the Shabak people and the religion shabakism are so connected that perhaps makes more sense only one article. And I am not even sure if the concept of "shabakism" is NPOV; it seems to implicitly assume that shabaks practice a distinct religion instead of being a sub-sect of Shia Islam (my idea is that this is a polemic question, or not?)--MiguelMadeira (talk) 16:25, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

@Am86:,@Alsantro:,@Khoikhoi:,@Chaldean:,@BlackOcelot:,@Daraheni:,@Behemoth:,@Aziz1005:,@Vekoler:,@Spinach charm:,@Dogru144:,@Xizilbash:,@Colfer2:,@Neutrality:,@Ogress:,@Unclefester89:,@Edward:,@Sroulik:,@Kak Language:,@Ezhiki:,@Sharisna:,@Qadisiyyah:,@Kathovo:,@Gomada:,@Bondegezou:,@Aflis:,@Catlemur:,@Saeed alaee:,@Alan Genco:,@JapanerRusse:,@Yeranouhi:,@Lothar von Richthofen:,@Feeleycq:,@Hamid Hassani:,@Ceosad:,@Ahmedo Semsurî:,@Cirflow:,@Tahc:,@Marcocapelle:,@Jobas:,@LorenzoRobertoDeLuca:--MiguelMadeira (talk) 16:47, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Oppose. Regardless of whether it is a sect or a separate religion it deserves a separate article. Too bad we do not have access to sources to expand it as of now, but you never know.--Catlemur (talk) 16:54, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment: Yezidis encompasses Yezidism, which is a redirect. I don't have a vote right now but this should be considered. Ogress 19:46, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose': Agree with Catlemur. In answer to Ogress, it's a bit messy, because while Yezidism does redirect to Yezidis, there is a separate Yazdânism article. In answer to MiguelMadeira, discussion of whether Shabakism should be described as a subsect of Shia Islam can be considered at the Talk page there. Bondegezou (talk) 08:33, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

But Yazdânism is not about yezidi religion, it is about a theory about an ancient Kurdish religion (from what yezidism, yarsanism and alevism are speculated to be derivations)--MiguelMadeira (talk) 09:23, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose: Shabak people are both an ethnic group and a religious group. There should be one article about the group, and a separate article about their religious beliefs. Compare Jews and Judaism. Am86 (talk) 15:51, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose: Shabak people follow a unique religion that is syncretic, having influence from Shia Islam, Christianity, and Kurdish idigienous beliefs such as Yarsanism, making them therefore deserve a unique page dedicated to their religion- which is why I made it in the first place. Quoting the small section on Shabak people, "their actual faith and rituals differ from Islam’s, and have characteristics that make them distinct from neighboring Muslim populations."Cirflow (talk) 08:05, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose: I don't even know how this is a discussion. One's about a religion the other is about a group of people. Chaldean (talk) 05:28, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose: my understanding is that many Shabaks identify as Shi'a or Sunni Muslims, without even the qualifier of "a sect of". I believe earlier in the 20th C. there were more adherents of Shabakism as a separate sect or religion. No idea how many are now. So makes sense to keep them separate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spinach charm (talk • contribs) 19:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

User deletions by User Ahmedo Semsurî

I have looked at history of this article and saw that extremely large deletion of this article was made without reason on talkpage. Such extremely large deletion must be explained on talkpage. And it is not copyvio if one cites one sentence with quotation marks clearly marked to the source. Another false reasons was given that the text is too long. The article is still very short and if the article is getting too long, than it has to be split in a second article on subtopic, not deleted for this reason. (other articles also have timelines like this and if too long there can create timeline article)

And deletion was very biased, only text critical of kurdification was deleted.

Deleted sections:

Forced assimilation

The geographical range of the Shabak people was drastically changed by massive deportations during the Al-Anfal Campaign in 1988 and the refugee crisis of 1991. Many Shabaks along with Zengana and Hawrami were relocated to concentration camps (mujamma'at in Arabic) located in the Harir area of Iraqi Kurdistan. An estimated 1,160 Shabaks were killed during this period. In addition, the Iraqi government's efforts of forced assimilation, Arabization and religious persecution put the Shabaks under increasing threat. As one Shabak told a researcher: "The government said we are Arabs, not Kurds; but if we are, why did they deport us from our homes?"

Even though the Sunni Shabak community identifies as Kurds, Shia Shabaks consider themselves a unique ethno-religious group.

Salim al-Shabaki, a representative of Shabaks in the Iraqi parliament - "The Shabaks are part of the Kurdish nation", he emphasized that Shabaks are ethnically Kurdish. (2016)

According to the US intelligence agency analysts, Shabaks are currently undergoing a process of Kurdification, though Shabak Council of Representatives member Ahmed Yusif al-Shabak says that Shabaks are Kurds.

In the Bashiqa sub district of the Mosul region, where Shabaks comprise 60 percent of the population, half of the city council members are of Kurdish origin.

On 15 August 2005, Shabaks organized a demonstration under the slogan "We are the Shabak, NOT Kurds and NOT Arabs", demanding recognition of their unique ethnic identity. The demonstration came under fire from Kurdistan Democratic Party militia.

On 21 August 2006, Shabak Democratic Party leader Hunain Qaddo proposed the creation of a separate province within the borders of the Nineveh Plain to combat the Kurdification and Arabization of Iraqi minorities.

On 22 June 2006, members of the Assyrian and Shabak communities filed a complaint to the Iraqi prime minister regarding the under-representation of the two communities in the police force of the Niveneh region. 711 Assyrian and Shabak policemen were sent to Mosul while their positions in their local communities were filled with Kurds.

On 20 December 2006, ten Shabak representatives unanimously voted for the non-inclusion of Shabak inhabited areas of the Mosul region into the Kurdish Regional Government. A number of Shabak village aldermans noted that they were threatened into signing the incorporation petition by Kurdish authorities.

On 13 July 2008, a group of unidentified armed men assassinated Abbas Kadhim. At the time of his murder, Kadhim was a member of the Democratic Shabak Assembly and an outspoken critic of the undergoing Kurdification process of the Shabak people. According to Shabak officials, Kadhim had received numerous death threats from members of the Peshmerga and the Kurdistan Democratic Party.

On 30 June 2011, the Nineveh provincial council distributed 6,000 lots of land to state employees. According to the head of the Shabak Advisory Board Salem Khudr al-Shabaki, the majority of those lots were deliberately given to Arabs.

Hunain al-Qaddo, a Shabak politician, was quoted by Human Rights Watch that "the peshmerga have no genuine interest in protecting his community, and that Kurdish security forces are more interested in controlling Shabaks and their leaders than protecting them." He also said that they are "suffering at the hands of the peshmerga and that the Kurdish government refuse to let the Iraq armed forces protect them and have rejected the idea of allowing them to establish their own Shabak police force to protect their people.” Kurdish forces have been implicated in some of the attacks against Shabaks. The prominent Mullah Khadim Abbas, leader of the Shabak Democratic Gathering, a group that opposes the incorporation of Shabak villages into the territory of the KRG, was killed in 2008 only 150 meters away from a peshmerga outpost. Abbas had prior to his killing angered Kurdish authorities by criticizing fellow "Shabaks working for the Kurdish agenda and denouncing Kurdish policies that in his view undermined the fabric of the community’s identity." In 2009, Shabak lawmaker al-Qaddo survived an assassination attempt in the Nineveh Plains.The attackers were wearing Kurdish security uniforms, he told Human Rights Watch. He also said that the Kurdish government will have an easier time imposing their will on the Shabak and obtaining their lands if they kill him. Shabak leaders have complained about impunity for killings. In some of these incidents, the KDP was accused of not investigating killings of non-Kurdish civilians by the peshmerga. HRW reported that "the root of the problem is the near-universal perception among Kurdish leaders that minority groups are, in fact, Kurds", and it reported that "Kurdish authorities have sometimes dealt harshly with Yazidi and Shabak members who resist attempts to impose on them a Kurdish identity".

Timeline of 21st century persecution

• In July 2007, a Shabak MP claims that, since 2003, Sunni militants have killed about 1,000 Shabaks. Another 4,000 Shabaks have fled the Mosul area out of fear of Sunni militants.
• On 16 January 2012, at least eight Shabaks are killed and four injured in a car bomb blast in Bartilla.
• Between 4–12 March 2012, four Shabaks are killed and four wounded in separate incidents which occurred within Mosul.
• On 10 August 2012, more than 50 Shabaks are killed or wounded after a suicide bomber targets the Al Muafaqiya village.
• On 27 October 2012, during the Eid al-Adha holiday, several Shabaks are killed in Mosul by gunmen who burst into their homes as part of a series of attacks.
• On 17 December 2012, five Shabaks are killed and ten wounded after a car bomb explodes in the city of Khazna.
• In 2012, Shabak deputies attempt to form a 500-man regiment consisting solely of Shabaks with the goal of protecting habitants of the Hamadaniya district.
• On 13 September 2013, a female suicide bomber kills twenty-one people at a Shabak funeral near Mosul.
• On 3 October 2013, the President of the Iraqi Kurdistan, Masoud Barzani, orders Peshmerga and Asayish militia to guard thirty Shabak villages in the Mosul region.
• On 17 October 2013, a vehicle rigged with explosives detonates in a Shabak populated area in the city of Mwafaqiya, where fifteen die and at least fifty-two are wounded.
• On 12 July 2014, ISIS fighters loot the Bazwaya village in the Mosul region. On the same day, sixteen Shabaks are abducted by ISIS from the Jiliocan, Gogjali and Bazwaya villages.
• Between 29–30 July 2014, ISIS abducts forty-three Shabak families from various neighbourhoods of Mosul.
• On 13 August 2014, ISIS destroys the house of an Iraqi parliament member of Shabak origin.
• During August 2014, ISIS abducts twenty-six Shabaks from the Hamdaniya district region.
• On 23 November 2016, eighty-nine ISIS fighters killed by the Shabak Maquis militants in Mosul.

The Nineveh Province is contested by ISIS and Iraqi Kurdistan fighters. The Shabak people were caught in a plight during the 2014 Iraq Offensive. A large number of Shabaks fled to Iraqi Kurdistan and about 30,000 Shabak and Turkmen refugees relocated to central and southern Iraq.

You are more than welcome to re-add well-sourced information as long as you take the responsibility to not just copy-paste and ruin the article. --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 01:00, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

References