Talk:Shoji

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:27, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

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Shōji are removable walls that transmit light

• ... that shōji are intended to transmit light? Source: "The washi paper creates a unique effect by refracting (sic) and diffusing light. The rays that pour through the screen are soft and muted, bright enough to illuminate a room yet dim enough to keep a person from being blinded." [1] "The washi paper used for shoji screens is made with a specific thinness that allows just the right amount of light to go through. By changing the fiber direction and thickness, washi can control two opposing optical factors such as reflection rate and transparency. Shoji’s paper surface scatters sunlight evenly, making it soft to the eye and allowing light to distribute evenly. This function of washi makes it particularly suitable for indoor lighting fixtures such as Isamu Noguchi’s famous “Akari” lamp shades. Even at night, shoji screens help light a room as their white surface reflects indoor light and brightens the room." Shoji Screens, Sukiya Living Magazine
  • ALT1:... that shōji are not made with rice paper, but ~since the Edo period, some have been made with synthetic fibers? Source:"By the Edo Period (1603-1968), shoji appeared much as they do today... The paper was once considered valuable and scarce because it was hand-made of natural materials. However, commercial manufacturing, which began in the late 1800s, as well as the introduction of synthetic fibers in the 1960s helped make the paper more affordable and easier to come by." [2] "The use of synthetic and chemical fiber started around 1960s, making the paper very affordable." [3] Source: "Shoji paper is made of traditional paper called washi. Some casual gaijin like to call it “rice paper,” but this is a myth. In fact, washi has nothing to do with rice." Shoji Screens, Sukiya Living Magazine Source: "The paper is translucent and is called 'shoji paper'. Sometimes people call it 'rice paper' (since it sounds 'oriental'?), but shoji paper really has nothing to do with rice."[4]
  • ALT2:... that a traditional sukiya-zukuri-style Japanese house may have no permanent walls at all, with even the exterior walls being movable and removable partitions, such as shōji? Source: "The sliding doors and windows in a Japanese house can be removed from their rails and stored in a hallway or adjacent room. Taking the doors out makes the room bigger, more open, and better integrated with other spaces such as the garden. The practice of removing the doors is common whenever a big room is needed for events like parties and funerals. If you live in a Japanese house, there is no need to be shy about removing the doors, but you have to be a little careful too. The doors are somewhat delicate and each of them is likely to be slightly different than the others. You need to remember the order in which they came out so they can be put back in the same order. Otherwise, you might find that some of the doors do not slide so easily...In fact, the graceful nature of shoji is a defining note of the Sukiya Living environment." Shoji Screens, Sukiya Living Magazine (see also "The better known (and more influential) sukiya style is in some ways related to the shoin style. " [5]) Source: "This sliding shoji door and track system worked so well in traditional Japanese house, because a house used to have only one large room with no permanent walls, in the old times." [6]

• Reviewed: Laem Phak Bia
• Comment: On the first one, shoji are formally and somewhat archaically called akari-shōji (明障子); "akari" means "light" (the kanji character is a picture of the sun and moon)

5x expanded by HLHJ (talk). Self-nominated at 05:55, 13 January 2020 (UTC).

• If someone who can speak Japanese would be willing to read through this, I'd be very glad of it (comments also welcome from those who can't speak Japanese). HLHJ (talk) 20:08, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Non-Japanese, but when I was a girl I was fascinated by everything Japanese. I am fascinated by the substantial article - picturebook. Almost too many images, perhaps trim a bit, for more focus? I am not happy with the choice on top here, which is great when large, but only confusing in stamp size. The lead image would be better here, for example. - Excellent sources, Japanese sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. Nitpicking: ref 4 is sometimes behind refs with higher numbers, and ref 78 is not defined. The hooks don't hook me (yet), please suggest something else below. ALT0: the hook is in the image caption. ALT1: it adresses people who already know some. ALT2: best information, but too much of a good thing, and some readers may never get to the bolded thing at the very end. Please try to reword it with that link right at the beginning. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:17, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

OK, I'll work on those concerns. Agreed there are better images, I have done a lot of categorizing in Commons since nominating, and will review the images. HLHJ (talk) 05:27, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

• ALT3:... that shōji, movable and removable partitions, can serve as windows, doors, and walls in a traditional sukiya-zukuri-style Japanese house, such that there are no fixed walls at all?

Shōji in a 1600s Dutch-Japanese interior

Shōji with artistic frames

Shōji from the outside

Shōji are modernly placed behind garasu-do

Shōji can be removed to open a space

Shōji in a Buddhist temple

Shōji in a simple building

Snow-viewing shōji

Shōji can be slid aside or lifted out easily

Shōji (lede image)

Me, write articles with too many pictures and citations? Gerda Arendt, I've taken out and replaced some of the pictures, and some of the content, largely by making a new article called List of partitions of traditional Japanese architecture, along with some of the articles it links to. I have also re-ordered the refs, which is a ridiculously frustrating editing task; I would urge someone who cares to write a script to do it. Here are some images; I mildly favour the second one, showing a studio, as I think it gives the best functional impression, but it may be a bit small. Close-up shōji images tend to be boring, and distant ones tend to involve high light contrasts that a camera sees very differently from a human eye, and look unrealistic and gloomy. Suggestions by anyone welcome (Commons:Category:Shōji). I'm still getting some feedback on some contradictions in the sources on the origins of shōji, so changes may occur, and there are a few cn tags. I'm not sure about a hook; perhaps it could incorporate the second article? HLHJ (talk)

• ALT4:... that shōji, like other traditional Japanese partitions, are used instead of walls, windows, and doors?

  Thank you for all you did, especially the other article!! ALT4 is just great, so I think we are almost there. We need to select an image, and write a caption for that one to appear on the Main page, and the clause [pictured] in the hook. please do that below, ready to be used by a prep-builder. My three pic favourites are the lead image, #6 and the last, because they show the semi-transparency even in small size. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:59, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

  Semi-transparency is an important thing to show, thank you for pointing that out. I looked though a large number of drawings of shoji, and did not find much suitable. I recall a photo of silhouetted furniture from outside at night, I think on Commons, but cannot find it. I'm guessing you mean the lede image, the Buddhist temple image and the Dutch-Japanese interior? The Dutch-Japanese interior does give a realistic impression of the light effect, and is interesting to people who about shoji. It's reconstruction early 1800s, though, my hasty caption is wrong, although the original building might have been built that early; maybe we should go with "historic" or something. Still waiting to hear back on a couple fact-checks, will do a final clean-up once I hear or at the end of this week. I should probably clean up the list article, too... also hunting some facts for that. HLHJ (talk) 05:54, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

• Hello from Japan. The article tells me: "the Edo Period (1603–1968)". Uh, no. That has extended Edo by an entire century. -- Hoary (talk) 13:18, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Yikes! I'd even gotten it right in the lede, and did not notice the inconsistency. Fixed, and many many thanks to Hoary. This is why expert review is very helpful... HLHJ (talk) 04:34, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Shōji in a historic Dutch-Japanese interior

Higashiyama period seems to have been wikilinked form a large number of articles; not sure how justified this is, or if it should link from Shoji; comments? Would a timeline be helpful? I have a Reference Desk query running in an attempt to determine the Japanese name of the bark walls described at the end of the partitions list article; it would be nice to sort that out before this goes up. There are no doubt further improvements possible, but I think I'm fairly done with this article, Gerda Arendt. Here's a hook and an image, but I'm happy to take alternative suggestions on either. Should the caption say Dutch-Japanese? The materials an workmanship are Japanese, the historic inhabitants European; see Dejima. HLHJ (talk) 00:36, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

• ALT4a:... that shōji (pictured), like other traditional Japanese partition types, are used instead of walls, windows, and doors?

That is lovely, thank you so much! - Is there a project Japan to perhaps help with the remaining article detail? ... or a category of Wikipedians who speak Japanese? - In the hook: if you find ways to move pictured to the end and/or stress "even exterior walls", I am with you, but it's fine, and the image - prep-builder: please! - will tell more than words. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:56, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

• ALT5:... that shōji, like other traditional Japanese partition types, serve as doors, windows and walls, both interior and exterior (pictured)?

ALT5 also avoids implying that they aren't doors, windows, or walls. And picture shows both interior and exterior use, so the placement of "pictured" makes sense. I posted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan#Shōji, and got some review (from User:Nihonjoe); Hoary from the reference desk also looked over it. Both seem to know a fair bit of Japanese. Hopefully they will have caught at least my more obvious mistakes. What detail would you like to have added, Gerda Arendt? HLHJ (talk) 06:30, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 August 2018 and 10 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Lil Beastea.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:15, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Macron in title

This has been on my mind since a while back, but since the article has been developing, I thought I'd bring it up now: should the article instead be at "Shoji"? The term is present in English dictionaries without the diacritic, making it the WP:COMMONNAME in English. Examples: OED, MW, Collins, Cambridge. Opencooper (talk) 05:42, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

This makes sense. The only difficulty might be consistency. The minimal pair "koshi" and "kōshi" are both used, each appropriately to its distinct sense, and some English-language texts call kōshi koshi, which would be very confusing if followed in the article. HLHJ (talk) 04:39, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Oh, my proposal is only for the term "shoji"; every other non-English term would still be romanized appropriately.

The koshi thing is confusing, but it's usually possible to reword or disambiguate. For example, you could qualify them as "kōshi lattice" and "koshi panel". Opencooper (talk) 08:51, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

I've written a pronunciation description into the lede; I haven't propagated the templates or spelling through the article, and I'm afraid I have enough of an irrational distaste for the work required that I don't think I'm likely to do it (partly as I had carefully gone though and changed shoji to shōji to accord with the existing style). JAANUS uses "shouji" and "koushi", but most other sources seem to treat the macron as mere decoration, to be omitted at will... HLHJ (talk) 00:12, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

@HLHJ: I wouldn't mind changing the occurrences in the article, as well as requesting the page be moved to the macron-less form. That is, if you don't have any objections. :) Opencooper (talk) 06:06, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Opencooper, rather belated answer. I have no objections. Thank you very much for being wiling to do it. HLHJ (talk) 02:06, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

My apologies in turn, this slipped my mind and I just now remembered. I requested a move, so once that goes through I'll align the article. Opencooper (talk) 06:01, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I completely object to removing the macron. This move should never have been a "technical" request but a proper move request. Move to restore original name of article. Gryffindor (talk) 21:30, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Pronunciation

@User:HLHJ, do you have a source for /ɕoɯʑi/? Suzukaze-c (talk) 06:14, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Suzukaze-c, I think I used a hiragana-IPA correspondence table, and am not surprised if this fails to give the correct pronunciation. I am happy to accept any correction, and I'd be even happier to have a source. Thank you for improving the article. HLHJ (talk) 02:04, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Post distance

In the second paragraph of the lead, the article states: The posts are generally placed one tatami-length (about 2m or 3ft) apart.... Two meters ≈ six feet? 76.119.40.77 (talk) 11:47, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, 76.119.40.77, that was remarkably stupid of me. I did know that a meter is ~3ft, but somehow mistyped, and I have a habit of ignoring Imperial measurements when reading, so I never noticed... It is now fixed. Next time, please feel free to fix it yourself; it would improve the encyclopedia. HLHJ (talk) 01:59, 5 March 2020 (UTC)