Talk:Sello mall shooting

Shooting

had been in prisma shop, in next building, on second floor —Preceding unsigned comment added by Silpol (talk • contribs) 12:14, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Potential references

Copied from another article on the topic:

• (BBC)
• (The Times)
• (Reuters)
• (Sky News)

— æk^Talk 10:29, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Nationality/origin

Are we SURE of his origins?. We must be able to verify everything from a reliable sources! No speculation Can someone tell me the source for this information? --220.101.28.25 (talk) 12:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

[2] Title translates as "Police chief: The suspect is Kosovan Albanian". --Pudeo' 12:43, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you! --220.101.28.25 (talk) 13:19, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

English please

Pleas remember this is the English Wikipedia and sources should be in English. (as far as I know anyway!). I certainly have trouble editing when I can't read the sources! --220.101.28.25 (talk) 14:00, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I do appreciate your concern, but obviously anyone editing articles on the English Wikipedia will try to keep to sources written in English. The problem is that it may not be possible at the time of writing, or generally, to find English-language sources to verify claims in the article. This applies especially to articles dealing with current events, as obviously local media will have wider coverage of events and in a more timely fashion.

There are indeed probably potential English-language references that could be used to verify most of this article. I might add them, but in the short term I'll be getting drunk instead. –Joonas, 91.153.209.206 (talk) 16:13, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I just noticed your list of sources. :) Why don't you add them? You might perhaps leave the Finnish ones in as well since they were the ones the original writers used... –Joonas, 91.153.209.206 (talk) 16:20, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Because I am 'knackered', it is 03:30 AM local time and I have been stuffing about here for hours already. Great New Years Eve, NOT, for me. --220.101.28.25 (talk) 16:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

It's awfully strange that this "English please" only seems to come up in Finnish articles, never in Spanish or Japanese articles. If English refs were meant to be the only refs allowed, this wiki would be biased beyond all belief and be a heck of a lot poorer for the loss of knowledge found in languages out of your reach. Fortunately English refs are not the only ones allowed; ask for a translation if you don't know what something says (and for people using non-English refs, please try to use the trans_title parameter for the cite web template.) -75.57.116.144 (talk) 17:33, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

No offence meant mate! Just that I was trying to keep the thing together, I had missed midnight in the process and was really tired, it was 2AM! And I don't know the rules (yet) about foreign language references. Don't know about Spain, but news in Japan probably gets quicker coverage in English language media,& Japan has lots of English newspapers etc. too. IMHO.This was the first Finnish event I've been involved in in ≈3+ months of editing. Quiet place Finland? --220.101.28.25 (talk) 00:01, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

The policy you want is WP:NONENG. English language sources are preferred, but can use foreign language sources if needed.-AlexTG (talk) 00:09, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you, I was the guy writing it on the Espoo page. I appreciate a main article page on it and further contributions from other editors! P.S.- I am English.♥♥--86.29.136.146 (talk) 14:12, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

You have done a good job, thank you!--86.29.142.54 (talk) 01:46, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Sources, perhaps more up to date? from Espoo article

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8435857.stm

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5het8zZlYzCb20v52jurSGr8YxcRQ

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/12/31/finland.shooting.shopping.mall/

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BU0UC20091231

http://www.smh.com.au/world/gunman-kills-four-at-shopping-mall-in-finland-police-20091231-lkxp.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6972377.ece --220.101.28.25 (talk) 15:56, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Adding the text removed from the Espoo article, in case there's something to incorporate here. The references are above.

Six people were killed and one wounded on New Year's Eve, 2009, by a lone gunman in the Sello shopping mall. The mall, opened in 2005, describes itself as one of the Nordic region's leading malls, with over 170 shops. The 43-year-old Kosovar Albanian Ibrahim Shkupolli had a long criminal record and his motives are undefined, but it may have been a grudge against his former employer, the Prisma grocery store.

Another employee, who was reportedly Mr Shkupolli's ex-girlfriend, was later found dead at her local flat. Shots were also fired into a nearby K-Citymarket store.

This incident is Finland's third major shooting since 2007. Finland's YLE media and the national Ilta-Sanomat newspaper have received accounts that Mr Shkupolli appeared to have been shooting randomly with a 9 mm gun, killing at least one employee in the grocery. Police spokesman Jurki Karlio told The Associated Press that the nearby Leppävaara Railway Station was closed by the police as a security measure after the shooting, as police searched for the gunman. The gunman later committed suicide.

The Finnish parliament has promised to review the licensing of privately owned hand guns. Until recently, it was legal for a person over 15 to own a hand gun, with parental consent and over 18 without consent. All new gun owners would face a psychological aptitude test to detect any underlying mental illnesses. Finland has a population of 5.3 million, with about 1.6 million firearms in private hands: the country ranks in the top five nations for civilian gun ownership. Terrierhere (talk) 17:08, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how hand gun legislation has any relevance here as the police reported that the gun used in the shooting was illegal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.249.63.32 (talk) 23:58, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Residence

Did he live in Finland since 1990 or 1998? I changed 1998 to 1990 because could not find the 1998 date in the source provided Tuscumbia (talk) 16:52, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

According to the Helsingin Sanomat, he has lived in Finland since 1990 after moving there from Norway. As for English-language refs, as requested above, they are often completely wrong, as they're cobbled together from multiple sources by people who haven't the slightest clue about Finland. -75.56.51.150 (talk) 16:56, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you! 1990 it is then until investigation brings more light into his background Tuscumbia (talk) 17:01, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Wife vs girlfriend

In the Perpetrator section, there was a reference to his ex-wife while it should be ex-girlfriend. The sources do not say that it was his wife who had been shot. On contrary, he's allegedly survived by his wife of Albanian origin, as per BBC Tuscumbia (talk) 17:06, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The Lansi-Savo newspaper refers to the woman as being his ex-puoliso, which is typically used for married couples, although it is also commonly used to refer to unmarried couples who have lived together for a long time, like this couple did. So no clue as to whether or not they were married. -75.57.116.144 (talk) 17:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Correction: This states that she was his ex-gf. -75.57.116.144 (talk) 17:10, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Birthdate and place

Where did someone get Shkupolli's exact birthdate and birthplace? I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere yet, except that he was born in 1966.--Soppakanuuna (talk) 17:13, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

This article says he was born in Mitrovica: New York Times article Tuscumbia (talk) 17:26, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

and one more about birthplace Tuscumbia (talk) 18:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Still couldn't find any source for the exact birthdate... --Soppakanuuna (talk) 15:06, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

"Randomly shooting"

I'm deleting the sentence "Many also claimed he started randomly shooting at the second floor of the mall." The source says one (not many) person said that. Unless evidence is found, chalk it up to a single shocked person's stressful exaggerated recollection. Everyone else says seven shots, four killed, no evidence or even rumors of reloading, so there is little room for sustained random gunfire. 88.112.56.9 (talk) 17:47, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

So what happened?

It seems this article talks about everything except the shooting. Right now it says someone shot his girlfriend then went to a mall. Then he walked out calmly from a grocery store. What actually happened at the mall? -- tariqabjotu 18:15, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The grocery store in question (Prisma) is in the mall (Sello). He shot his ex, who worked at the grocery store, in an apartment near the mall then went to the grocery store and shot four of her co-workers in the grocery store. Of the four, one man was shot twice in the head and one woman in the stomach on the bottom floor of the grocery store. He then went upstairs and shot two more men. His ex, though, was only found after the shooting in the grocery store. (According to http://www.hs.fi/kaupunki/artikkeli/Ampuja+tappoi+viisi+ihmist%C3%A4+ja+itsens%C3%A4+Espoossa/1135251811875). -75.57.128.236 (talk) 21:50, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Perplessità

Beg your pardon, ma credo sia un tantino macabro - a meno di due ore dalla strage - già avere aperto una pagina wiki. Non siamo giornalisti sciacalli, ma wikipediani. Qua invece sembriamo iene affamate che passano tutto il loro tempo ad aspettare carogne di cui ingozzarsi. Obrigado. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.202.249.46 (talk) 21:08, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

'E molte macabro. -75.57.128.236 (talk) 21:51, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Concorderai, quindi, che in certe occasioni occorrerebbe un po' più di tatto, e servirebbe pure ricordarci che Wikipedia non è una testata giornalistica stile CNN o BBC, ma un'enciclopedia seria in cui - sempre - dovremmo vedere gli accadimenti nella corretta inquadratura contestuale ed ad una giusta distanza critica e analitica. Grazie per la comprensione ;-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.74.206.137 (talk) 00:33, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Should be moved to Sello shopping mall shooting or something of the like

Espoo is a large city in Finland and has more than one shopping mall. It didn't take place at Iso Omena, for instance, so the title is just plain misleading. -75.57.128.236 (talk) 21:56, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

This guy might have a point. Other shopping-center shootings are typically identified by name of shopping center - Trolley Square shooting, Tacoma Mall shooting, Westroads Mall shooting Nutmegger (talk) 00:15, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

As the shopping mall's article is simply Sello, the logical name for this article is Sello shooting — which, as it happens, is the original name I used when creating this article... Jpatokal (talk) 05:48, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

The shooting spree includes the murder of his girlfriend, which occurred outside of the shopping mall, so perhaps it should in fact be "Espoo shooting spree".-AlexTG (talk) 07:36, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

a.m. or p.m.

The article states that the shooting incident happened "shortly after 10:00 local time," but does not state whether that was 10 a.m. or 10 p.m. It might add clarity to this article to indicate the time of day. [[Briguy52748 (talk) 01:44, 1 January 2010 (UTC)]]

You can assume that "10:00" without an appendix means two things: 24-hour clock (which is the most commonly used in the world) and 10:00 a.m. People from the few countries with 12-hour clock usually add the appendix to avoid confusion. --The O o (talk) 02:50, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I did see where the a.m. was added to the article, which is very helpful for those readers in countries using the 12-hour clock, although certainly using either the a.m. notation time or the 24-hour time in parentheses is also helpful. [[Briguy52748 (talk) 23:03, 1 January 2010 (UTC)]]

Concur absolutely. This article is read by people worldwide and must be made accessible to them. Probably we should give local time (which early reports are often under) and UTC as well. Last available Traffic Statistics (January, 1 2010) for this article shows almost 14 thousand readers. NB. What time system is used in Finland?--220.101.28.25 (talk) 06:39, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

In Finland, 24-hour clock is used in written communication. According to the Manual of Style, "[c]ontext determines whether the 12- or 24-hour clock is used". Since the shooting occurred in Finland, so we should use 24-hour time notation in this article. --Apalsola ^{t • c} 21:20, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

@220.101.28.25 - NO. Like I said. If a time is in the 12-hour system, then there is ALWAYS an a.m. or p.m. added to that time in wiki. If it is not (=24:00) then there is no need. You don't add "a.m." to a 24-hour clock - that would be wrong. You only add it to the 12-hour clock --The O o (talk) 00:05, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

It's 10.08am . If you want the time always ask a policeman.--86.29.133.238 (talk) 20:07, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

References

Category:Kosovar immigrants to Finland

Why is this article in the category Category:Kosovar immigrants to Finland? The article is about, and named after, the incident. The perpetrator immigrated to Finland, the incident didn't. All the other articles in the category are named after people. JIP | Talk 10:39, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Consistency

For some reason, a user thought to start the paragraph about the shooter by pointing out that he was Muslim. I read the articles about the two latest mass murders in Finland, the Kauhajoki school shooting and the Jokela school shooting. Nowhere did it say that the shooters were Christians, so why pointing out religion in this article. If it would have been a terror attack or in any way linked to religion, it would of course be different, but we usually don't highlight the religion of famous or infamous people unless it's relevant in any way. To take two examples, it is very relevant that the Pope is Catholic but it's not relevant that Monica Bellucci is Catholic.Jeppiz (talk) 19:51, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Because of Saari and Auvinen were atheists, not Christians. --Krgeqewrjsif (talk) 21:40, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

How is his religion any less relevant than any number of other facts about him currently in the article, such as his age? It might not be relevant to you, but maybe someone else will find that information useful. Edrigu (talk) 02:56, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Since Muslims are a minority in Finland it does seem to me to be appropriate to mention it when describing him, but not as prominently as the first sentence. The article states he is a Kosovo Albanian and a grocer, are either of these more important than his religion?-AlexTG (talk) 04:27, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

How do we know he is a Muslim? He came from a country where the majority is Muslim, sure enough, but he could have been an atheist, converted to Christianity, Buddhism or whatever.85.134.111.113 (talk) 09:22, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, this is a bit of an old debate. This discussion also happened after the Fort hood shooting in November 2009. It is not really relevant if we want to maintain NPOV. If he had shouted Allahu Akbar which is an 'Islamic' phrase, and was used by Hasan, perhaps. But this seems to be a personal issue between the suspect and his former girlfriend. Therefore I believe Shkupollis' religion is not relevant. And if we don't have a verifiable, reliable source then it most certainly should NOT be mentioned.

As an aside I question whether all the See also section links are relevant, one is a bombing! Another links to an Australian shooting, which admittedly was in a shopping mall, and the gunman did suicide afterwards, so perhaps close enough. --220.101.28.25 (talk) 05:58, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Someone with an Arabic name (Ibrahim) is unlikely to be anything other than Muslim. Belluci's article states she is agnostic. Lkjhgfdsa 0 (talk) 13:33, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

We're interested in facts here, not what we think may be likely. People convert every day without changing their name. I'm not saying he did, but he might have. Or he could have been an atheist. At any rate, there's not even the slightest hint that his religion was an issue.Jeppiz (talk) 20:59, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Anti-depressants

Any evidence that he was taking or withdrawing from anti-depressants or any other psychiatric medication? Johnalexwood (talk) 14:41, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Suspect /perpetrator/ shooter

These 'designations' have been changed around a lot since this event happened, especially in the 'infobox'. The suspect in the Fort Hood shooting is still referred to as just that. Or, as the accused suspect. The main difference here is that Shkupolli is dead. Is there any consensus on what term is most appropriate? Personally I think suspect is correct until he is officially identified as the perpetrator of this horrible(my POV) incident. He is also referred to as suspect in the article text, so at least we should be consistent throughout the article. --220.101.28.25 (talk) 07:41, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

The other three victims / motive(s)

One victim was his former mistress and another was her lover; did Shkupolli know the other three people he killed? Did he used to work with them? Did he have a grudge against each of them? Did he leave a note explaining his motive(s) or tell anyone what he was going to do or why? Lkjhgfdsa 0 (talk) 13:56, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Police alleges that he knew all of his victims and in fact, had chosen them before the shootings. Another interesting fact mentioned here is that he had been seen with his girlfriend, most likely a few days or weeks before the shootings despite the restraining order. All the other victims could have indirectly taken part in their relationship by consulting her or filing restraining orders against him, etc. Of course this is unconfirmed but there is a big possibility he knew all of the victims personally. Tuscumbia (talk) 15:13, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Dead link

External link#1 results an error in my case. Perhaps blocked in Italy. Alternative:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-12-31/news/29436740_1_shopping-mall-kosovo-town-mall-employee

S.I. Oliantigna (talk) 12:37, 2 October 2011 (UTC)