Talk:Seljuk dynasty/Archive 3

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Seljuk dynasty , A Turkic Persianate Dynasty

According to these references Seljuks were Turku-Persia(Iranian).and this has to be mentioned in the opening section of this article

"Aḥmad of Niǧde's al-Walad al-Shafīq and the Seljuk Past", A. C. S. Peacock, Anatolian Studies, Vol. 54, (2004), 97; "With the growth of Seljuk power in Rum, a more highly developed Muslim cultural life, based on the Persianate culture of the Great Seljuk court, was able to take root in Anatolia."

Meisami, Julie Scott, Persian Historiography to the End of the Twelfth Century, (Edinburgh University Press, 1999), 143; "Nizam al-Mulk also attempted to organise the Saljuq administration according to the Persianate Ghaznavid model..." Encyclopaedia Iranica, "Šahrbānu", Online Edition: "... here one might bear in mind that non-Persian dynasties such as the Ghaznavids, Saljuqs and Ilkhanids were rapidly to adopt the Persian language and have their origins traced back to the ancient kings of Persia rather than to Turkmen heroes or Muslim saints ..." Josef W. Meri, Medieval Islamic Civilization: An Encyclopedia, Routledge, 2005, p. 399 Michael Mandelbaum, Central Asia and the World, Council on Foreign Relations (May 1994), p. 79 Jonathan Dewald, Europe 1450 to 1789: Encyclopedia of the Early Modern World, Charles Scribner's Sons, 2004, p. 24: "Turcoman armies coming from the East had driven the Byzantines out of much of Asia Minor and established the Persianized sultanate of the Seljuks." Grousset, Rene, The Empire of the Steppes, (Rutgers University Press, 1991), 161, 164; "renewed the Seljuk attempt to found a great Turko-Persian empire in eastern Iran." "It is to be noted that the Seljuks, those Turkomans who became sultans of Persia, did not Turkify Persia-no doubt because they did not wish to do so. On the contrary, it was they who voluntarily became Persians and who, in the manner of the great old Sassanid kings, strove to protect the Iranian populations from the plundering of Ghuzz bands and save Iranian culture from the Turkoman menace." Possessors and possessed: museums, archaeology, and the visualization of history in the late Ottoman Empire; By Wendy M. K. Shaw; Published by University of California Press, 2003, ISBN 0520233352, ISBN 9780520233355; p. 5. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Javaddeniro (talk • contribs) 00:16, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

No. The Seljuq dynasty was Turkic/Turkish as shown by these sources;

• "Turkish dynasty, also spelled Seljuk, ruling military family of the Oğuz (Ghuzz) Turkic tribes that invaded southwestern Asia in the 11th century and eventually founded an empire...." Encyclopedia Britannica
• "The Turkish groups of the greatest import in the history of Europe and W Asia were, however, the Seljuks and the Osmanli or Ottoman Turks, both members of the Oghuz confederations." Encyclopedia Columbia
• Saljuqs, Andrew Peacock, Encyclopaedia Iranica, (May 25, 2010). "A dynasty of Turkish origin that ruled much of Anatolia".Encyclopedia Iranica.
  

Turco-Persian is a culture as clearly stated by the sources that are being miscontrued to represent an ethnicity!

• "Aḥmad of Niǧde's al-Walad al-Shafīq and the Seljuk Past, A. C. S. Peacock, Anatolian Studies, Vol. 54, (2004), 97; "'With the growth of Seljuk power in Rum, a more highly developed Muslim cultural life, based on the Persianate culture of the Great Seljuk court..."
• Encyclopaedia Iranica, "Šahrbānu, "here one might bear in mind that non-Persian dynasties such as the Ghaznavids, Saljuqs and Ilkhanids..", this clearly states the Saljuqs were non-Persian!!!

Also, check out Turko-Persian tradition,"The composite Turko-Persian tradition[1] refers to a distinctive culture that arose in the 9th and 10th centuries (AD) in Khorasan and Transoxiana (present-day, Iran, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, minor parts of Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan)."

As I said previously, Turko-Persian is a culture not an ethnicity. --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:25, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

        No , Seljuk dynasty was a turkic group that rapidly adopted Persian language , and culture and had been mixed with persian nobles by marriages.You can say Tughrul Was of turkic origin 100 percent , But the house of seljuk is not all Tughrul and in  the  next generations they were mixed with Persian Iranian nobel families.also they fully adopted Persian language and culture.Identity of people is recognized by their culture and language not by the name of their grand grand father Sir so the later generations of Seljuk Dynasty who were speaking by persian language , had Persian culture and iranian mothers were At least Turko-Persian.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Javaddeniro (talk • contribs) 00:48, 31 December 2015 (UTC) --Javaddeniro (talk) 01:14, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

And the sources you have copied from the Seljuk Empire relate to culture, which means your assertion of "Turko-Persian" "ethnicity" is original research. Original research is not allowed on Wikipedia. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:00, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

  well , I think you do not like words like Persian or Persianate , we have seen this in talk page of the  Seljuk empire before.As I have suggested before here Tughrul was from Turkic ethnicity but in the later generations as I have referenced the house of Seljuk was Persianized by language and culture.I think it is you're self made opinion that Ethnicity is something different from language and culture as I've never seen some ideas like this somewhere else previously and I think this is an original research that you can present it in Harvard or somewhere else not my Idea about changing the identity of seljuks from turkish to Turko-Persian later that has been suggested in different researches as I tell you again:

non-Persian dynasties such as the Ghaznavids, Saljuqs and Ilkhanids were rapidly to adopt the Persian language and have their origins traced back to the ancient kings of Persia rather than to Turkmen heroes or Muslim saints here you just cut the first part of the text and ignore the second part that suggests the house of Seljuk was Persianized. or here established the Persianized sultanate of the Seljuk or here you see obviously Persianate ethnicity and the Persianization process in the house of seljuk: enewed the Seljuk attempt to found a great Turko-Persian empire in eastern Iran." "It is to be noted that the Seljuks, those Turkomans who became sultans of Persia, did not Turkify Persia-no doubt because they did not wish to do so. On the contrary, it was they who voluntarily became Persians you see in the bold part of the text .--Javaddeniro (talk) 03:01, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

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it is now almost a week that I have made the upper statement about the Seljuk house.Kansas bear has made an original research that is forbidden in wikipedia.he says ethnicity is different from the language and the culture , but as we clearly know etnicity is based on the culture and the language, for example the ethnicity definition in english wikipedi:

 An ethnic group or ethnicity is a category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural or national experience.[1][2] Unlike most other social groups, ethnicity is primarily an inherited status. Membership of an ethnic group tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, origin myth, history, homeland, language and/or dialect, symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, art, and physical appearance.

well it's widelly accepted by scholars that the Seljuk house in the later generations adopted Persian language and culture and the Persianating process happened for them , as we read here:

"Aḥmad of Niǧde's al-Walad al-Shafīq and the Seljuk Past", A. C. S. Peacock, Anatolian Studies, Vol. 54, (2004), 97; "With the growth of Seljuk power in Rum, a more highly developed Muslim cultural life, based on the Persianate culture of the Great Seljuk court, was able to take root in Anatolia." or from Iranica:

Saljuqs and Ilkhanids were rapidly to adopt the Persian language and have their origins traced back to the ancient kings of Persia rather than to Turkmen heroes or Muslim saints

Turcoman armies coming from the East had driven the Byzantines out of much of Asia Minor and established the Persianized sultanate of the Seljuks Grousset, Rene, The Empire of the Steppes, (Rutgers University Press, 1991), 161, 164; "renewed the Seljuk attempt to found a great Turko-Persian empire in eastern Iran." "It is to be noted that the Seljuks, those Turkomans who became sultans of Persia, did not Turkify Persia-no doubt because they did not wish to do so. On the contrary, it was they who voluntarily became Persians and who, in the manner of the great old Sassanid kings, strove to protect the Iranian populations from the plundering of Ghuzz bands and save Iranian culture from the Turkoman menace." ...... As it's obvious and widelly accepted by the scholars the Seljuk dynasity became Persianated in the later generationns and as it's obvious from the definition of the word "ethnicity" , it's defined based on the language and the culture of one guy , and as it's widely accepted in the academic world that the seljuk adopted Persian language and culture now better for us to edit the opening of the article and suggest the Turko-Persian ethnicity of the Seljuk house.--Javaddeniro (talk) 19:05, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

• "Grousset, Rene, The Empire of the Steppes, (Rutgers University Press, 1991), 161, 164; "renewed the Seljuk attempt to found a great Turko-Persian empire in eastern Iran."

Instead of taking Grousset out of context, why not read the entire sentence?

• "After him[Sultan Sanjar], the shah of Khwarizm, who like the Seljuks were of Turkic stock, renewed the Seljuk attempt to found a great Turko-Persian empire in eastern Iran: Turkic in its military structure, Persian in its system of administration. [...] It is to be noted that the Seljuks, those Turkomans who became sultans of Persian, did not Turkify Persian-no doubt because they did not wish to do so. On the contrary, it was they who voluntarily became Persians and who, in the manner of the great old Sassanid kings, strove to protect the Iranian populations from the plundering of Ghuzz bands and save Iranian culture from the Turkoman menace." page 161-162

Clearly Grousset called the Seljuks of Turkic stock, the second sentence, "did not Turkify Persian", "who voluntarily became Persians", followed by, "save Iranian culture from the Turkoman menace."

• "Seljuk Turkey of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries therefore shows a layer of Persian culture super-imposed on Turkoman foundations." Grousset, page 157
• "here one might bear in mind that non-Persian dynasties such as the Ghaznavids, Saljuqs and Ilkhanids were rapidly to adopt the Persian language and have their origins traced back to the ancient kings of Persia rather than to Turkish heroes or Muslim saints ."

This has to do with faked genealogies, not ethnicity.

• "Aḥmad of Niǧde's al-Walad al-Shafīq and the Seljuk Past", A. C. S. Peacock, Anatolian Studies, Vol. 54, (2004), 97; "With the growth of Seljuk power in Rum, a more highly developed Muslim cultural life, based on the Persianate culture of the Great Seljuk court, was able to take root in Anatolia."
• "By this time, the eleventh century, the Seljuq Turks had moved westward establishing an Islamic dynasty in which a Turk ruled, an Iranian administered on his behalf..." --Turko-Persian in Historical Perspective, Robert L. Canfield, page 82.
• "The empires that arose in Turko-Persia[Seljuq Empire] and carried Turko-Persian Islamicate culture into new territories were able to contain the strength of the pastoral-based armies and to establish secure centers of wealth and power." page 19.
• "Turko-Persian Islamicate culture, as it will be called here, is an ecumencial mix of Arabic, Persian and Turkic elements that melded in the ninth and tenth centuries in eastern Iran..." page 1.

Nothing about ethnicity, which you continue to misrepresent.

• "SALDJUKIDS, a Turkish dynasty of mediaeval Islam which, at the peak of its power during the 5th-6th/llth-12th centuries, ruled over, either directly or through vassal princes, a wide area of Western Asia from Transoxania, Farghana, the Semirecye and Khwarazm in the east to Anatolia, Syria and the Hidjaz in the west." --Encyclopaedia of Islam, Vol.VIII, page 936.

Clearly stated by the Encyclopaedia of Islam which is written and edited by hundreds of academics, Seljuks were a Turkish dynasty. Not Persian.

• "The Seljuqs, who brought this culture westward into Iran, Iraq, and Syria were the successory of the Qarakhanids in Transoxiana.[...] Pressing westward they brought Turko-Persian Islamicate culture into western Iran and Iraq." Canfield, page 13.
• "This composite culture was the beginning of the Turko-Persian variant of Islamicate culture. It was Persianate in that it was centered on the lettered tradition of Iranian origin; it was Turkish in so far as it was for many generations patronized by rulers of Turkic ancestry..." Canfield, page 12.

Canfield clearly shows Turko-Persian is a culture patronized by rulers of Turkic ancestry. As I have continued to say, and you have continued to ignore, Turko-Persian is a culture which I have clearly shown is supported by academic sources. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:51, 5 January 2016 (UTC)